Hey all, Starting this thread to specifically focus on the possibility of South Brooklyn being the dig site. The logic behind the location comes from the image match of the face of SOL in image 12 accompanied by the line in Verse 10 "Or gaze north toward the isle. of B. We are also going by the assumption the the dig site would be near the riverside. Another potential solve is that the Verrazzano bridge is at play here as well. Perhaps it is the arm that extends over the slender path ( Narrows), which seems to make a lot of sense and still keeps us in South Brooklyn. More so, the area is filled with references to A. Hamilton, if indeed he is the indies native that is spoken about in the verse. Possible parks include those on Shore Rd., Leif Ericson park and possibly Sunset park (which needs more research). Owl's head and JPJ has been extensively researched without much promise. Prospect park has also been researched and has not presented any potential solves/theories. We have boots on the ground presently at this site. We would need to do more research and see what has changed in the area since the casque was buried. We also would hope to find someone who fits the "him of hard word" title. If I have missed something, please enlighten me and us. If you have another theory, in another location, I ask that you post it on the other threads that are more broad on this topic of discussion. This thread is to specifically go over the South Brooklyn theory alone!

To review thus far, focusing in southwest Brooklyn based upon these clues from verse: 1) location is south of SOL (Bedloe’s Isle) 2) location is in Brooklyn (rhapsodic man) 3) location near the shore (where one would hear a “whirring sound” from bicycles or ferries) Furthermore: 3) location has a ‘nearby’ reference “sign” to Alexander Hamilton 4) Verrazano and SOL visible from location Listing parks here based on our exclusion criteria More likely: 1) South Shore Less likely: 1) JPJ (SOL not visible) 2) Owls Head (no Hamilton reference) 3) Leif Ericsson (not near shore, SOL not visible) 4) Sunset Park (no Hamilton reference, not near shore) 5) McKinley (not near shore, SOL not visible) Look good so far? NYC. I agree. It’s worth double checking Sunset and Owls Head for Hamilton reference. Anyone have any? BTW. Love the way this post is organized by verse/image/geographic location. Hopefully will be a model that members can use on this forum. Helps to get people with similar location ideas together.

Actually Leif Ericson park is right on Shore road and SOL is visible. As far as the signs nearby part, I hold some reservations of how nearby the sign needs to be and if the sign in question is still there. I am not sure what you mean by Brooklyn being Rhapsodic man? Yes hopefully we can keep things organized and be forthcoming about our theories and ideas about this area.

One more obvious, possible confirmer, the surf depicted at bottom of painting seems like a reasonable confirmer for SHORE road/park. It’s simple, not stretching much I don’t think. So painting tie ins to south Brooklyn location: - Surf for Shore Road/Park - Face of woman for SOL - Outline of painting resembling Verrazano bridge NYC. Also agree with your post on the dots. I don’t think they are a vital clue to solving this puzzle. It might help confirm but there are plenty of other clues that could lead to a dig spot. The Charles Dickens tie in would crack this wide open, but there seem to be only a handful of “v”s in this area that would fit. May not absolutely need Charles Dickens clue, but it would be nice. My interpretation of ‘rhapsodic man’s soil’ is that Preiss was simply saying that the treasure is buried in the ‘home turf’ of Gershwin (i.e. Brooklyn). Like saying Larry Bird’s home turf/stomping grounds are Indiana. Connotation is that this was the area of the country he was known for. A very general reference to Brooklyn.

davinci4 wrote:: - Outline of painting resembling Verrazano bridge My only question with this is why would the outline of painting 1 (San Francisco) also have the same curved arch on top? I get that 1/12 are kind of mirrors or bookends of the paintings, so they sort of match that way, but there's no bridge in SF with the curved top like the Verrazano. The Golden Gate Bridge being the most likely bridge is rectangular, and the Oakland Bay bridge is as well. Not that it's that important, since we're in agreement here about the location anyway, but: how can we say that the curved top in image 12 is from a bridge in NY, but the curved top in image 1 is not from a bridge in SF? Hope that makes sense.

Maybe the do have a resemblance too each other, Bridge and Tower, both arched frames and landmarks?? Verrazano bridge and Coit Tower https://ibb.co/1ncX8bj https://ibb.co/fvh1Q45

Arches could be the window/observatory opening on Chrysler building and Coit tower. Or Queensboro Bridge! https://tinyurl.com/y2o4nkvh

idyl wrote:: My only question with this is why would the outline of painting 1 (San Francisco) also have the same curved arch on top? I get that 1/12 are kind of mirrors or bookends of the paintings, so they sort of match that way, but there's no bridge in SF with the curved top like the Verrazano. The Golden Gate Bridge being the most likely bridge is rectangular, and the Oakland Bay bridge is as well. Not that it's that important, since we're in agreement here about the location anyway, but: how can we say that the curved top in image 12 is from a bridge in NY, but the curved top in image 1 is not from a bridge in SF? Hope that makes sense. I believe that the arch is symbolic of a gateway. New York Harbor being its gateway for all the immigrants coming into Ellis Island. Entering SF, to go to Angel Island, would put you under the GGB no different then entering NY would put you under the Verrazzano. I hope I explained that right..If not, Google it

Choice wrote:: Arches could be the window/observatory opening on Chrysler building and Coit tower. Or Queensboro Bridge! https://tinyurl.com/y2o4nkvh See now you are just being annoying.

NYCNative wrote:: Actually Leif Ericson park is right on Shore road and SOL is visible. As far as the signs nearby part, I hold some reservations of how nearby the sign needs to be and if the sign in question is still there. I am not sure what you mean by Brooklyn being Rhapsodic man? Yes hopefully we can keep things organized and be forthcoming about our theories and ideas about this area. NYC. Is the Verazzano visible anywhere from Leif Ericsson? Based on your observations, maybe Leif Ericsson belongs in a ‘possibly’ category between Shore Park (more likely) and the others (less likely). Hi Idyl. As we discussed before, not counting on image confirmers for this puzzle. I threw those three out there as possibilities. I agree. The archway has a nice tie in but not very specific for one location. But I happen to agree with NYC’s interpretation given its proximity to our proposed location. Perhaps a slightly more specific one is the Roman numeral clock on the front of Fort Hamilton HS (again not an exact match, and not very unique). Really focusing on the verses here given the lack detailed images in the painting.

davinci4 wrote:: NYC. Is the Verazzano visible anywhere from Leif Ericsson? Based on your observations, maybe Leif Ericsson belongs in a ‘possibly’ category between Shore Park (more likely) and the others (less likely). Hi Idyl. As we discussed before, not counting on image confirmers for this puzzle. I threw those three out there as possibilities. I agree. The archway has a nice tie in but not very specific for one location. But I happen to agree with NYC’s interpretation given its proximity to our proposed location. Perhaps a slightly more specific one is the Roman numeral clock on the front of Fort Hamilton HS (again not an exact match, and not very unique). Really focusing on the verses here given the lack detailed images in the painting. The Verrazzano is visible anywhere in that area/neighborhood.

One neat thing about Leif Ericsson is that the west end forms a “v” with two branches of Shore Road.

Another good suggestion I got was to use the simple keywords in the Japanese version of the verse to help clear out all the words that get over analyzed for nothing.

While I am sure this is not a new theory, it has to be said. I am starting to think "him of hard word" is JFK, especially now due to the location in Bay Ridge. I am thinking he is being referred to as him of hard word due perhaps to the way he pronounced the word hard as well as his speech about the mission to the moon, which I believe was at Rice University, where he said,"..we do it because it is hard!" On the 4th ave exit of the belt parkway, which is Ft. Hamilton, the sign leaving bar ridge says Kennedy airport. So although the sign speaks of Hamilton in one direction, in the opposite direction it speaks of Kennedy. Why 3 Vols.? I have no clue because if vols. is not volumes then I am not sure what the word vols. is referring to. Here is the kicker that I am sure previous theories about Kennedy could of not known. Since we now have the Japanese clues, we got the hint about the word play with chicken. I also checked the translation and in one version the clue said "he is a chicken". Brooklyn is the birth place of Kennedy Chicken which opened its first store in Flatbush, Brooklyn in 1969. Since then has become a really big chain restaurant in NYC and spread through out the country. Thoughts?

NYCNative wrote:: Brooklyn is the birth place of Kennedy Chicken which opened its first store in Flatbush, Brooklyn in 1969. Since then has become a really big chain restaurant in NYC and spread through out the country. Thoughts? Non New Yorkers will think this is a dubious reference, but I assure you, this is the most NYC reference ever.

I like this reference too...one other footnote. I saw a picture of a plaque in the Narrows Botanical Gardens in South Shore Park. It mentions continuing to grow roses even in “difficult times.” Thought that was worth mentioning as we are trying to find a connection in this area for this line. There is also a book on this plaque with some writing on it, but hard to read from image I saw. Anyone have a clear image? Have the narrows botanical gardens been investigated extensively?

Hard word could be a cuss word. Reminds me of Hamilton musical and the song "Hamilton bastard orphan". Also lion in Hamilton's shield is present in the breakers.

davinci4 wrote:: I like this reference too...one other footnote. I saw a picture of a plaque in the Narrows Botanical Gardens in South Shore Park. It mentions continuing to grow roses even in “difficult times.” Thought that was worth mentioning as we are trying to find a connection in this area for this line. There is also a book on this plaque with some writing on it, but hard to read from image I saw. Anyone have a clear image? Have the narrows botanical gardens been investigated extensively? Narrows Botanical garden was unfortunately not around when the casque was buried. It was created, I believe in 1995, but a bunch of neighborhood volunteers. Would be interesting to see what was there before then, if anything.

Okay. Thanks. Yes would be nice to have an older aerial image of the northern area in South Shore Park. ....on another note, anyone have any comments on Choice’s observation regarding the red dot panel? I looked at it for a quite a while and the “85 st.” makes a lot of sense, and I am not one to over analyze images either. Just curious what the group’s thoughts were. Could be quite a significant finding considering this area in the northern end of South Shore Park we are considering.

davinci4 wrote:: Okay. Thanks. Yes would be nice to have an older aerial image of the northern area in South Shore Park. ....on another note, anyone have any comments on Choice’s observation regarding the red dot panel? I looked at it for a quite a while and the “85 st.” makes a lot of sense, and I am not one to over analyze images either. Just curious what the group’s thoughts were. Could be quite a significant finding considering this area in the northern end of South Shore Park we are considering. Everyone who has attempted to look at the panels and figure out numbers or letters, or even faces has only came up with a good case of pareidolia. Also, he is the boy that cried wolf way to many times, in my book. Can't respect someones ideas when they themselves don't invest anytime in researching them before presenting them.

NYCNative wrote:: Can't respect someones ideas when they themselves don't invest anytime in researching them before presenting them. Think of them as leads. Some are promising, some aren't. What I like about Choice is he(I assume he, sorry if not) tends to work on an idea. It isn't required to be part of an overarching solution. That is so important.

“Leads”. I like that terminology. ...speaking of leads. Looking at the panels again. How about the Russian Orthodox Church in Brooklyn on 12th street as a spot on match. One more to add to the list. I think this one is like the Water Tower, where it gives you a general area to look but not site specific. And it fits the Russian theme of the painting, I can’t see a better fit for this panel than this one. It’s spot on.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: Think of them as leads. Some are promising, some aren't. What I like about Choice is he(I assume he, sorry if not) tends to work on an idea. It isn't required to be part of an overarching solution. That is so important. I have to disagree. He attaches himself to one idea and tries to fit it in as much as possible, even when it clearly does not fit. He wants the attention and wants to be heard but just won't do the work in making his ideas solid. Just shotgunning information that is not relevant is not promising to me. But this thread is not about him and I am trying to just ignore him as much as possible. Not asking anyone else to do so.

davinci4 wrote:: “Leads”. I like that terminology. ...speaking of leads. Looking at the panels again. How about the Russian Orthodox Church in Brooklyn on 12th street as a spot on match. One more to add to the list. I think this one is like the Water Tower, where it gives you a general area to look but not site specific. And it fits the Russian theme of the painting, I can’t see a better fit for this panel than this one. It’s spot on. We have seen that before but I don't think it is a spot on match. The towers in the image have different features then the actual church does. In fact every onion dome building that has been mentioned have been a bit off compared to the image. Perhaps we are not looking for an exact match and perhaps the onion domes in the image is a combination of other things we have not yet considered. There is no building that I have seen in reality that is exact to the onion domes in the image. If you look at the furthest tower in the onion dome image, it is not an onion dome at all. You wont find the piece in the Russian Orthodox church building.

NYCNative wrote:: We have seen that before but I don't think it is a spot on match. The towers in the image have different features then the actual church does. In fact every onion dome building that has been mentioned have been a bit off compared to the image. Perhaps we are not looking for an exact match and perhaps the onion domes in the image is a combination of other things we have not yet considered. There is no building that I have seen in reality that is exact to the onion domes in the image. If you look at the furthest tower in the onion dome image, it is not an onion dome at all. You wont find the piece in the Russian Orthodox church building. Maybe it's not about the church itself.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: Maybe it's not about the church itself. Elaborate

Choice wrote:: It could actually be both 83 and 85 like between 83rd and 85th St. In fact if you look at that window pane with the blue lens of a 3D glasses the 85 and St. pops out at you. davinci4 wrote:: ...anyone have any comments on Choice’s observation regarding the red dot panel?.... Just curious what the group’s thoughts were. NYCNative wrote:: Everyone who has attempted to look at the panels and figure out numbers or letters, or even faces has only came up with a good case of pareidolia. davinci4 wrote:: ...would be nice to have an older aerial image of the northern area in South Shore Park. Quote from another thread: IF there is both an 83 St and 85 St there: Fort Hamilton HS takes up a two-block plot. Between 83rd and 85th Streets....Hmmm. On another note - for those not old enough to remember, 3-D movies experienced quite a resurgence beginning in the early 80's. Red/Blue glasses were readily available. They were disposable and many folks took them home after the movie. I even remember local TV broadcasts of old 50's 3-D movies. One could pick up the glasses at just about any NYC area 7-11 to watch the movies on channel 9 or 11, I believe. I vaguely remember them giving them out with the purchase of any Slurpee. Agree with your issue here, but not necessarily your apparent conclusion. One could also say that everyone who has attempted to find the NY casque has failed. While true, I'm not letting that stop me from trying it...Folks can undoubtedly see/make all sorts of letters and such out of the bubbles. Doing so would by necessity be "interpretive" and thus open to questioning and doubt. Some may rule out the possibility out of hand, as you may have. And that would be a valid opinion. But just because it's a high-risk "lead" to try and work and while majority who try it will be wrong, it could pay off big for the lucky fool who gets it right (if it is right). Maybe Choice and davinci4 are those folks. I don't know. You are welcome to disagree or think that the pareidolia risk is too high. And the odds would be with you. davinci4 - You can check out these resources for this. 1. Download Google Earth Pro - Clock icon at top lets you toggle between different dates for overhead images. 2. Go to https://www.historicaerials.com/viewer Both of these can go back decades. Some older overheads will be crap. Some are surprisingly clear. Hopefully these will provide what you are looking for.

Kang wrote:: Quote from another thread: IF there is both an 83 St and 85 St there: Fort Hamilton HS takes up a two-block plot. Between 83rd and 85th Streets....Hmmm. On another note - for those not old enough to remember, 3-D movies experienced quite a resurgence beginning in the early 80's. Red/Blue glasses were readily available. They were disposable and many folks took them home after the movie. I even remember local TV broadcasts of old 50's 3-D movies. One could pick up the glasses at just about any NYC area 7-11 to watch the movies on channel 9 or 11, I believe. I vaguely remember them giving them out with the purchase of any Slurpee. Agree with your issue here, but not necessarily your apparent conclusion. One could also say that everyone who has attempted to find the NY casque has failed. While true, I'm not letting that stop me from trying it...Folks can undoubtedly see/make all sorts of letters and such out of the bubbles. Doing so would by necessity be "interpretive" and thus open to questioning and doubt. Some may rule out the possibility out of hand, as you may have. And that would be a valid opinion. But just because it's a high-risk "lead" to try and work and while majority who try it will be wrong, it could pay off big for the lucky fool who gets it right (if it is right). Maybe Choice and davinci4 are those folks. I don't know. You are welcome to disagree or think that the pareidolia risk is too high. And the odds would be with you. davinci4 - You can check out these resources for this. 1. Download Google Earth Pro - Clock icon at top lets you toggle between different dates for overhead images. 2. Go to https://www.historicaerials.com/viewer Both of these can go back decades. Some older overheads will be crap. Some are surprisingly clear. Hopefully these will provide what you are looking for. Like everything else about this puzzle, to each their own and no theory is incorrect. However, those panels can produce absolutely anything you want it to. I have seen people fall down that rabbit hole many times, me being one of them. 3D glasses and color filters (not a new method) are just going to highlight whatever it is you want to see. your brain will try to make sense of it and it can not be unbiased. Someone in another thread made a good point, if you believe the interview about NYC on the podcast. See the recent post on the image 12 thread. I believe the post was from M. Falcon. I am not saying do not take a shot at trying to solve the "bubble panel". Yes, just like the puzzle itself, a new perspective can bring some light to some questions. But if we all do the puzzle the exact same way, using the same methods, a new perspective would be limited in its worth. It is just my opinion, but doing this again is beating a dead horse. You won't produce the same results as others who have done the same, you will just produce more confirmation of what you want to see. Anyway, the interview clues about it on the podcast seem more credible and possible then trying to make out shapes, numbers, letters and faces out of it.

Thoughts? https://imgur.com/a/I5YdmKi

NYCNative wrote:: 3D glasses and color filters (not a new method) are just going to highlight whatever it is you want to see. your brain will try to make sense of it and it can not be unbiased. Based on this statement, I see why you discredit the idea, but that's not at all how it should work, imo. The filters would not be used to highlight something. One or more color absorption filter is placed in front of a light source so that it shines upon the image. The goal would be to find the proper combination of filters that would make dots disappear or turn black. This would be best achieved using physical filter, a light source, and a printed image or the book. What I am referencing is an elementary school science experiment.

Regarding Russian Orthodox Cathedral of the Transfiguration of Our Lord, I was doing some research on that this morning and I do think it's the best match out there. Sure, it's not exact - if it was exact it would include the crosses at the top, for one. But it's pretty close. Also of course the fact that it matches the Russian theme and is close to a park doesn't hurt. It's striking how similar New York and the Boston puzzle seem to be: They both have these castles in the images and it's unclear what their purpose is. NY has better matches so far for the castle images They both prominently feature birds. NY also has better matches so far than Boston for possible image matches to the bird, but it's purpose still mostly shrouded in mystery They both feature a female faerie whose face looks a good bit like a prominent statue in the city (though the Columbus match is much more hotly debated than the statue of liberty). This may be the way we confirm the City in these images as they lack a clear building or state outline. And in both, we haven't been able to find good images matches in a defined area (at least in my view). They both just appear to lack Cleveland-quality image matches or near the dig location, for whatever reason that may be (maybe these puzzles work differently, or maybe the locations have changed too much over time, or maybe maybe we haven't found a good enough location yet, or maybe we have the image/verses/cities mixed up).

Here's another Brooklyn-confirming thing that I haven't seen really discussed: A decent number of people agree that the bottom of the woman's dress is representative of the southern portion of the island of Manhattan. Anyone familiar with NYC knows that there are also the four outer boroughs: Queens, Brooklyn, Staten Island, and the Bronx. Look at the size and relative positions of the water droplets and gem around the bottom of the dress. Compare the sizes of the four outer boroughs. The Bronx is the smallest (42.1 sq. mi.) State Island is the next smallest (58.4 sq. mi.) Queens is the largest (108.5 sq. mi.) Brooklyn is the second largest (70.8 sq. mi.) They each match up, comparatively, with the sizes of the droplets and gem, as well as their positions in regard to each other and Manhattan. As water drops: Bronx is on the top right, Staten on the top left, Queens on the bottom right. The gem matches up with Brooklyn, on the bottom left. Image 12 essentially has a map of all five boroughs of NYC. Bonus: This might also tie into the verse. Manhattan is the smallest overall borough (22.8 sq. mi.) yet is represented as the largest (compared to the water droplets and gem). One might even say it is giant compared to them. And the woman's dress does seem to change color as it goes down, from being an ivory white on top to a darker grey .

dosethree wrote:: ... It's striking how similar New York and the Boston puzzle seem to be: They both have these castles in the images and it's unclear what their purpose is. NY has better matches so far for the castle images They both prominently feature birds. NY also has better matches so far than Boston for possible image matches to the bird, but it's purpose still mostly shrouded in mystery. Look closely at the "eagle". Eventhough it has an eagle head it has a seabird body; like an albatross. They are known for very long distance flight into sea. As I posted before Charles Lindbergh, Lone Eagle and spirit of St. Louis first solo nonstop transatlantic flight from Long Island, New York, to Paris, France. Lindbergh took off in the Spirit from Roosevelt Airfield, Garden City, New York. Remember BP's nod to St. Louis.

Hi Kang. Thank you for your post. The aerial imagery provided of South Park is fantastic. Shows a nice clear “v” in 1980 right in front of Fort Hamilton HS (and anther one slightly north). Great information. Thank you for sharing. Two conversations going on here: The Red Bubbles: NYC I can see where your hesitation may lie. The “83/85 st.” is somewhat subjective but I have funny feeling that was JJP’s clue in the painting. Of course, I am biased because it fits my location. If you look at the lighter color bubbles (like pink, violet) versus the dark reds/oranges, there really does seem to be something there. Ishihara used a similar artistic technique to create his color plates to screen for red-green color deficiencies. I don’t think it is necessary to use a red filter to discern the “83/85 st.” but it may help to bring those colors out more. Russian Orthodox Church: I think we may have to apply a little more art than science here. You have a historical building in Brooklyn with an almost exact match. I would argue it matches better than the Cleveland terminal tower depicted in the Cleveland painting. The outline looks to be drawn in perspective where the closer onion dome that lines the side (4 total) appears larger than the one in the background. With main large onion dome (with windows shown) in the middle. NYC what are you seeing that you don’t like as a match? Idyl. Great observation BTW. Only furthers the Brooklyn location. Of course, not any one of these clues, says this is the spot. However, the sum of the parts appears to be adding up.

Maybe it's an actual window that has not been suggested... Or maybe it's the coordinates on the color plates that have been suggested... Or maybe it's both or neither. Or maybe each one of us is supposed to be led by and dig at whatever and wherever makes sense to himself or herself... Or maybe, just maybe, we should all be a little more color blind and, while all this oogling is fun, rely only on the black and white.

davinci4 wrote:: Hi Kang. Thank you for your post. The aerial imagery provided of South Park is fantastic. Shows a nice clear “v” in 1980 right in front of Fort Hamilton HS (and anther one slightly north). Great information. Thank you for sharing. Two conversations going on here: The Red Bubbles: NYC I can see where your hesitation may lie. The “83/85 st.” is somewhat subjective but I have funny feeling that was JJP’s clue in the painting. Of course, I am biased because it fits my location. If you look at the lighter color bubbles (like pink, violet) versus the dark reds/oranges, there really does seem to be something there. Ishihara used a similar artistic technique to create his color plates to screen for red-green color deficiencies. I don’t think it is necessary to use a red filter to discern the “83/85 st.” but it may help to bring those colors out more. Russian Orthodox Church: I think we may have to apply a little more art than science here. You have a historical building in Brooklyn with an almost exact match. I would argue it matches better than the Cleveland terminal tower depicted in the Cleveland painting. The outline looks to be drawn in perspective where the closer onion dome that lines the side (4 total) appears larger than the one in the background. With main large onion dome (with windows shown) in the middle. NYC what are you seeing that you don’t like as a match? Idyl. Great observation BTW. Only furthers the Brooklyn location. Of course, not any one of these clues, says this is the spot. However, the sum of the parts appears to be adding up. https://imgur.com/a/27XSB9t This is what I am talking about. It is not an onion dome and it is not on the Church on 12st. What I am trying to say is that this is probably a link to the immigration and the story then it is a real place or building we would have to locate within NYC. This is an exact match... https://imgur.com/a/5ZPu5gI

Okay. I see what you are saying. Best case scenario it’s another confirmer for Brooklyn otherwise tying in the general immigration reference. .. I am liking the northern part of South Shore Park. Now only if we could finalize it with “Him of Hard Word”. Maybe another question, who are the natives?

davinci4 wrote:: Okay. I see what you are saying. Best case scenario it’s another confirmer for Brooklyn otherwise tying in the general immigration reference. .. I am liking the northern part of South Shore Park. Now only if we could finalize it with “Him of Hard Word”. Maybe another question, who are the natives? The natives would have to be the people of Brooklyn. I like the JFK theory but have no idea what 3 vols would be in that case. Rhapsodic man is more elusive as if it is truly Gershwin, that would lead me to believe the verse does not include an actual dig spot. If Gerhwin's soil is all of Brooklyn.

Yes. I think much “north towards Isle B,” rhapsodic’s man’s soil will not point to anything specific other than Brooklyn. Isle of B at least tells us we need to be able to visualize the SOL ... Let’s say for arguments sake, there is a plaque in South Shore Park that we all missed with an inscription quoting Charles Dickens. While it helps support the location, its not going to yield a precise dig spot. Maybe the real only question now is where is the “v” ? I like the one in front Fort Hamilton HS. What other “v”s are people considering?

davinci4 wrote:: Yes. I think much “north towards Isle B,” rhapsodic’s man’s soil will not point to anything specific other than Brooklyn. Isle of B at least tells us we need to be able to visualize the SOL ... Let’s say for arguments sake, there is a plaque in South Shore Park that we all missed with an inscription quoting Charles Dickens. While it helps support the location, its not going to yield a precise dig spot. Maybe the real only question now is where is the “v” ? I like the one in front Fort Hamilton HS. What other “v”s are people considering? The V in front of the HS has been bulldozed and repaved. The thing about looking for v shaped paths is that you will be able to find them all over the place. You really need to let that Dickens theory go. I know you are using it as an example in this case, but it is a theory based on nothing other that the name rhymes with chicken.

‘The v is the key.’ I propose the following criteria: -v needs to run in N-S direction. -adjacent dig spot approximately 50 feet away from middle of one branch -can walk 22 steps from either branch as long as one is walking east -dig spot should ‘say something’. Vague I know. But feel like the spot should be at a wall or gate or be designated by difference in terrain. I know the area in front of the HS has been renovated but doesn’t rule it out. And there definitely other v’s in the area which could also fit. Feel like there could be another clue here that would eliminate ambiguity, hence my excitement of the possibility of “85 st.” being hidden in the painting.

davinci4 wrote:: ‘The v is the key.’ I propose the following criteria: -v needs to run in N-S direction. -adjacent dig spot approximately 50 feet away from middle of one branch -can walk 22 steps from either branch as long as one is walking east -dig spot should ‘say something’. Vague I know. But feel like the spot should be at a wall or gate or be designated by difference in terrain. I would 100% agree with everything you said here.

davinci4 wrote:: ‘The v is the key.’ I propose the following criteria: -v needs to run in N-S direction. -adjacent dig spot approximately 50 feet away from middle of one branch -can walk 22 steps from either branch as long as one is walking east -dig spot should ‘say something’. Vague I know. But feel like the spot should be at a wall or gate or be designated by difference in terrain. I know the area in front of the HS has been renovated but doesn’t rule it out. And there definitely other v’s in the area which could also fit. Feel like there could be another clue here that would eliminate ambiguity, hence my excitement of the possibility of “85 st.” being hidden in the painting. Lets say between the high school and Owl's head park, there has to only be about 10 V shaped paths. And I know someone before was commenting about the shape of the dress being Manhattan (which would be a horrible drawing of Manhattan). A portion of the bottom of her dress matches very well to the shape of shore park from Owl's head to about 74th or so.

That’s good. That’s really good. Actually much better fit than lower Manhattan, especially if you use Shore Road and bay ridge parkway as your verticles. Nice observation!...if you haven’t yet, take a look at the aerial imagery website provided by Kang. The v’s were far more defined back then.

davinci4 wrote:: ‘The v is the key.’ I propose the following criteria: -v needs to run in N-S direction. -adjacent dig spot approximately 50 feet away from middle of one branch -can walk 22 steps from either branch as long as one is walking east -dig spot should ‘say something’. Vague I know. But feel like the spot should be at a wall or gate or be designated by difference in terrain. So you don’t think that upon finding Him of Hard word you take 22 east steps or more? And then from the middle of one branch of the v (that you have now reached) you look down at simple roots? V has to be a path? I personally don’t love these constraints.

davinci4 wrote:: That’s good. That’s really good. Actually much better fit than lower Manhattan, especially if you use Shore Road and bay ridge parkway as your verticles. Nice observation!...if you haven’t yet, take a look at the aerial imagery website provided by Kang. The v’s were far more defined back then. So lets say this is all true and spot on, now what? What will tie everything to one spot? Like you said, something like a gate, or plaque or something? Also, have you noticed how many streets and pathways have a distinct arches?!

phrabbott wrote:: So you don’t think that upon finding Him of Hard word you take 22 east steps or more? And then from the middle of one branch of the v (that you have now reached) you look down at simple roots? V has to be a path? I personally don’t love these constraints. More of just seed balling a theory about a v path along these paths. Not married to it at all. Even if the verse is 100% correct, as we have it, we still don't have a spot.

phrabbott wrote:: So you don’t think that upon finding Him of Hard word you take 22 east steps or more? And then from the middle of one branch of the v (that you have now reached) you look down at simple roots? V has to be a path? I personally don’t love these constraints. I was just thinking about that. I agree. The v is likely a path (worth discussing though). The positioning of the line of “him of hard words” between ‘the sign nearby’ and the ‘v’ makes me think this clue is very site specific and will eliminate any ambiguity about which v we should be standing at (Preiss must have taken into account the fact that the v would be ambiguous). The Hamilton sign helps but we have mentioned at least two Hamilton signs in Owls Head/north end of Shore Park. That line (hard words) could be the last piece of the puzzle. What was he thinking when he wrote it? There has to be a ground marker we are missing. Any other thoughts on what a ‘v’ could be? The fact you to start at the middle of one branch, makes me think of something large in scale (like path) versus say a Roman numeral V on a monument.

NYCNative wrote:: ...A portion of the bottom of her dress matches very well to the shape of shore park from Owl's head to about 74th or so. Props to NYCNative for this one. I hadn't heard of this match before he proposed it. Here's a pic for those who like a visual. Second, I know some disagree, but I don't subscribe to the theory that once something in the image is "matched" to something - that's it - cross it off the list because it can be nothing else. I think JJP was even more brilliant than that. Others disagree and that is fine - but they may miss out on clue opportunities in the process. (Just my opinion). The above match seems to deviate from Shore Road at about 74th. Why? Perhaps there is a reason. Perhaps it is so the bottom of the dress better ALSO matches Staten Island (upside down). A well worn idea - but one that I think was already a better match than the bottom of Manhattan. And if NYCNative is correct (and I think he is) - that very rounded edge and line angle is not quite right for Staten Island because JJP snuck in the Owl's Head Park roundness/Shore Road match. Just one thought. And just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

Kang wrote:: Props to NYCNative for this one. I hadn't heard of this match before he proposed it. Here's a pic for those who like a visual. Second, I know some disagree, but I don't subscribe to the theory that once something in the image is "matched" to something - that's it - cross it off the list because it can be nothing else. I think JJP was even more brilliant than that. Others disagree and that is fine - but they may miss out on clue opportunities in the process. (Just my opinion). The above match seems to deviate from Shore Road at about 74th. Why? Perhaps there is a reason. Perhaps it is so the bottom of the dress better ALSO matches Staten Island (upside down). A well worn idea - but one that I think was already a better match than the bottom of Manhattan. And if NYCNative is correct (and I think he is) - that very rounded edge and line angle is not quite right for Staten Island because JJP snuck in the Owl's Head Park roundness/Shore Road match. Just one thought. And just my opinion. Your mileage may vary. Thank you sir. I am internet challenged when it comes to posting pics correctly

Okay. Let me throw one more v out there. The v at the northern aspect of Vinland playground in South Shore Park. This v starts at Oliver street. Charles Dickens = Oliver Twist? ..Oliver! was actually the name of the broadway musical. Anyone explored here before? My best guess at a complete solution so far: In the shadow Of the grey giant (at border of Manhattan) Find the arm that (pick a parkway) Extends over the slender path (278/Belt/BQE that extend over narrows) In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound (ferries in NY Bay or bike path along Belt I.e. stay by the shore) Cars abound (South Shore Park, bounded by Belt and Shore Road) Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native (Fort Hamilton Sign) The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. (Oliver Street, Charles Dickens = Oliver! Or Oliver Twist) Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more (take 22 steps east) From the middle of one branch Of the v (v at Oliver street in the park) Look down And see simple roots (?grass) In rhapsodic man's soil (general Brooklyn reference) Or gaze north Toward the isle of B. (SOL)

davinci4 wrote:: Okay. Let me throw one more v out there. The v at the northern aspect of Vinland playground in South Shore Park. This v starts at Oliver street. Charles Dickens = Oliver Twist? ..Oliver! was actually the name of the broadway musical. Anyone explored here before? My best guess at a complete solution so far: In the shadow Of the grey giant (at border of Manhattan) Find the arm that (pick a parkway) Extends over the slender path (278/Belt/BQE that extend over narrows) In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound (ferries in NY Bay or bike path along Belt I.e. stay by the shore) Cars abound (South Shore Park, bounded by Belt and Shore Road) Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native (Fort Hamilton Sign) The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. (Oliver Street, Charles Dickens = Oliver! Or Oliver Twist) Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more (take 22 steps east) From the middle of one branch Of the v (v at Oliver street in the park) Look down And see simple roots (?grass) In rhapsodic man's soil (general Brooklyn reference) Or gaze north Toward the isle of B. (SOL) Everything but that god damn Dickens BS!!!!!!

LOL. ..NYC, Why don’t you like the Dickens reference? Hard Times was written in Household Words in three volumes. Even if you don’t like the Japanese hint. Plus Preiss pays homage to the great authors of American classical literature throughout the Secret (Twain, Melville, Longfellow, RLS). An odd reference to Dickens I agree, but one I could see him using. Have you ever visited this spot before? By Aerial imagery, it appears unchanged over last 40 years.

davinci4 wrote:: LOL. ..NYC, Why don’t you like the Dickens reference? Hard Times was written in Household Words in three volumes. Even if you don’t like the Japanese hint. Plus Preiss pays homage to the great authors of American classical literature throughout the Secret (Twain, Melville, Longfellow, RLS). An odd reference to Dickens I agree, but one I could see him using. Have you ever visited this spot before? By Aerial imagery, it appears unchanged over last 40 years. The thing about the Dickens reference is that it was created because the Japanese clue said it was word play with the word chicken. The laziest solution was to rhyme chicken with Dickens. I am sure we can connect a lot of literary people with the 3 vols. insert, but two questions: One. If we are going by those Japanese clues, didn't they also say that this person was NOT a writer? Two. Why would any natives, none alone Brooklyn natives, still be talking about Dickens?

davinci4 wrote:: The Hamilton sign helps but we have mentioned at least two Hamilton signs in Owls Head/north end of Shore Park. Maybe I missed this, but which Hamilton signs were in Owl's Head and the north end of Shore Park?

Maybe by chicken he means coward or yellow - something to that effect - he said play with words - not rhyme.

NYCNative wrote:: The thing about the Dickens reference is that it was created because the Japanese clue said it was word play with the word chicken. The laziest solution was to rhyme chicken with Dickens. I am sure we can connect a lot of literary people with the 3 vols. insert, but two questions: One. If we are going by those Japanese clues, didn't they also say that this person was NOT a writer? Two. Why would any natives, none alone Brooklyn natives, still be talking about Dickens? I agree with this. I've never even come close to thinking that "Dickens" was part of this solution. And I'm honestly kind of surprised so many people jumped onto that bandwagon since, as you said, it's practically the "laziest solution." Sure, it might be correct, but I'd wager against that.

davinci4 wrote:: Okay. Let me throw one more v out there. The v at the northern aspect of Vinland playground in South Shore Park. This v starts at Oliver street. Charles Dickens = Oliver Twist? ..Oliver! was actually the name of the broadway musical. Anyone explored here before? I have a little bit. When I first thought of the Oliver/Dickens idea and saw the V nearby haha. Inconclusive... That would be one I would just blindly probe (if I blindly probed.) I actually commend you for running with Oliver idea. I thought for a second that there might be something there, but I stand by the fact that Hard word is not going to actually be the word “Hard.” Probe me wrong. Pun intended. Re: V question. If the V is the end of the 22 steps as I implied and not the beginning, it could be anything. Branch could imply tree. Could end near a path. Could be a structure or shorthand for something. Could be a metal fence support

I was thinking about something from a previous post (I apologize, I forgot whom). They pointed out the lack of proper street names (mostly numbered) that line South Shore Park. I thought this fact might be something Preiss could have used to point to a specific cask location. Also consider the lack of monuments and plaques in South Shore Park. It would be hard to provide a precise location without offering us something unique. The list of streets with non-numbers: -Bay Ridge Ave/Parkway -Mackay -Oliver -Ridge Interestingly, a parking lot (“cars abound”) starts at Oliver at this point in the park. With regards to Dickens, I encourage people to look back in the forum. This is not a new idea and was theorized well before the Japanese hints came out. The Japanese hint may have further solidified it for some . Prhabbot thank you for that hint. ..I do think the v is on a large scale given we are told to walk to the middle of one branch

idyl wrote:: Maybe I missed this, but which Hamilton signs were in Owl's Head and the north end of Shore Park? The theory about that is that since the park is right on the Belt parkway, you can see the exit signs on the pkway. One of which is Ft. Hamilton exit. Other then that, there should be no signs near Owl's head or North parts of the park about Hamilton that I can remember.

davinci4 wrote:: I was thinking about something from a previous post (I apologize, I forgot whom). They pointed out the lack of proper street names (mostly numbered) that line South Shore Park. I thought this fact might be something Preiss could have used to point to a specific cask location. Also consider the lack of monuments and plaques in South Shore Park. It would be hard to provide a precise location without offering us something unique. The list of streets with non-numbers: -Bay Ridge Ave/Parkway -Mackay -Oliver -Ridge Interestingly, a parking lot (“cars abound”) starts at Oliver at this point in the park. With regards to Dickens, I encourage people to look back in the forum. This is not a new idea and was theorized well before the Japanese hints came out. The Japanese hint may have further solidified it for some . Prhabbot thank you for that hint. ..I do think the v is on a large scale given we are told to walk to the middle of one branch I bet the other time Dickens was mentioned was in the Lower Manhattan/Battery park theories. Even though, I still have the Dickens theory, with a passion. It is creative to use Oliver st. to support it, but I still would have no clue as to why the natives would still speak about Dickens, especially when thinking about the word still, as if they have always spoke about him. I totally understand your logic behind it but it makes zero sense to me. We are just going to have to agree to disagree with that one. Also, I employ anyone and everyone to check the translation for themselves on the Japanese clues. I do think that a few words get lost in translation. Nothing crucial but simple things. For example, when I ran it thorough 3 different translation programs, 2 of them said, "he is a chicken." I am just assuming that since Japanese is so different from English that some words can be interpreted different ways when trying to make a accurate translation. I ran with the "he is a chicken" and looked up famous names of chicken characters around that time, such as Cornelius (the Kellogs mascot) or foghorn leghorn, something in that realm. When doing that and cross referencing Brooklyn, I came up with Kennedy Chicken. Seems to make more sense that the Natives would still be talking about JFK after his assassination, especially since many places around adopted his name to honor him. I especially like the fact that the sign near the Hamilton sign says Kennedy airport rather then JFK. Plus, let me just throw this out there. " The natives still speak of him of hard word in 3 vols." Is it that the natives still speak of "him of hard word in 3 vols" or they still speak of him in 3 vols.? Is the person's description him of hard word in 3 vols. or are the natives still speaking about him in 3 vols.?

Here's my verse 10 translation done by my bonified, born and bred Japanese friend who knows nothing about this hunt: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0iwjkf088ccpe ... 0.jpg?dl=0 The reason I had him do it, and that I overlayed it on the text, was I was never sure what was the translator's ideas, what was the Japanese editors ideas, and what Preiss actually said. So this is word for word. Seems the editor has a lot of opinions that may be leading. Edit for context: My friend has lived in NYC since going to college at NYU, so his English is equal to his Japanese and if you spoke with him you wouldn't even know he's from Japan. I think this is the most natural translation I've found. Interestingly, he also mentioned that the hints are written a little weird. (which I think I've heard from others?)

phrabbott wrote:: Here's my verse 10 translation done by my bonified, born and bred Japanese friend who knows nothing about this hunt: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0iwjkf088ccpe ... 0.jpg?dl=0 The reason I had him do it, and that I overlayed it on the text, was I was never sure what was the translator's ideas, what was the Japanese editors ideas, and what Preiss actually said. So this is word for word. Seems the editor has a lot of opinions in my mind that may be leading. That is awesome Phil, Thanks! I will look it over now!... Well that cleared up somethings for me. Whirring sound, seems easy enough. So him of hard word can very well be an author but I suppose it is just implied, not for sure? And yeah, as much as I hate Gershwin, there isn't many other choices. The only two songs that have been thought of with rhapsody in it would be Rhapsody in blue and Bohemian rhapsody.

Thanks for sharing that. It’s such an odd hint. Not sure how to interpret it. Feel like it should make sense at dig spot (hence my preference for Olivér st.) Here are some of the possibilities for this line: -Kennedy Chicken -Charles Dickens -also have heard the dictionary as a possibility (Webster’s Dictionary) Any others? Other question for group as well. I have never been to South Shore Park. Is it really that scarce when it comes to plaques, monuments, landmarks? Not much on Google.

No prob. I had posted it on the NYC facebook for fear of people here getting upset at reposts haha. Him of Hard word. The problem is, in my mind, that they're all just candidates and never anything better. That's why I think it's going to be purely contextual in the area and that when you see the one that makes sense in context of the other clues, you'll be like 'oh, I guess that's him.' That's why NYCNative's is so far the best I've seen other than RicHard Cochlea at Old Glory. Richard really seems like an obscure clue to me though, and I'm not sure where to take it from there. My idea on the chicken clue there is that these clues were a phone conversation and can't be that deep of clues, so when the editor asked BP about this, BP scrambled to think of a CH word because Hard is masked by a CH sound in Richard. That's really all I've got and it's totally contradictory to my "hard can't be the word hard" spoutings.

NYCNative wrote:: And yeah, as much as I hate Gershwin, there isn't many other choices. The only two songs that have been thought of with rhapsody in it would be Rhapsody in blue and Bohemian rhapsody. Now you understand why I won't let up on that clue haha. The whirring, while I wholeheartedly believe bikes, does seem very tainted by Japanese editor's opinions.

phrabbott wrote:: Now you understand why I won't let up on that clue haha. The whirring, while I wholeheartedly believe bikes, does seem very tainted by Japanese editor's opinions. How so? on land and man powered.

phrabbott wrote:: Here's my verse 10 translation done by my bonified, born and bred Japanese friend who knows nothing about this hunt: This is great. Did your friend translate the other hints?

phrabbott wrote:: No prob. I had posted it on the NYC facebook for fear of people here getting upset at reposts haha. Him of Hard word. The problem is, in my mind, that they're all just candidates and never anything better. That's why I think it's going to be purely contextual in the area and that when you see the one that makes sense in context of the other clues, you'll be like 'oh, I guess that's him.' That's why NYCNative's is so far the best I've seen other than RicHard Cochlea at Old Glory. Richard really seems like an obscure clue to me though, and I'm not sure where to take it from there. My idea on the chicken clue there is that these clues were a phone conversation and can't be that deep of clues, so when the editor asked BP about this, BP scrambled to think of a CH word because Hard is masked by a CH sound in Richard. That's really all I've got and it's totally contradictory to my "hard can't be the word hard" spoutings. Can you elaborate on the RicHard Cochlea idea? The Cochlea has three chambers. Hmm.

davinci4 wrote:: Can you elaborate on the RicHard Cochlea idea? The Cochlea has three chambers. Hmm. Oof. I messed up his last name. Cocheo. He’s with two other plaques, so those are the three vols in this idea. I’m on my phone. Sorry!

NYCNative wrote:: The thing about the Dickens reference is that it was created because the Japanese clue said it was word play with the word chicken. The laziest solution was to rhyme chicken with Dickens. I am sure we can connect a lot of literary people with the 3 vols. insert, but two questions: One. If we are going by those Japanese clues, didn't they also say that this person was NOT a writer? Two. Why would any natives, none alone Brooklyn natives, still be talking about Dickens? Siskel, 2004 wrote:: other tidbits that drew us to this area included the reference to the "natives still speak of him of Hard word in three vols." which thus far Egbert believes might refer to Charles Dickens (author of Hard Times which, when written, was divided into three novellas) Not so, the Dickens was a contender for "Him of hard word / 3 vols" well before the Japanese hints were released hxxp://quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=754&p=15456&hilit=dickens#p15456

GoldenMartyr wrote:: This is great. Did your friend translate the other hints? As he’s not into the hunt, I just did the one most pertinent to me as to not ask to much of him. Due to popular demand I’ll get some beers and we’ll do a full translating sess. I do think it came out very well and reads much more naturally. (sorry verse 12 I hope to be drunk by then)

phrabbott wrote:: As he’s not into the hunt, I just did the one most pertinent to me as to not ask to much of him. Due to popular demand I’ll get some beers and we’ll do a full translating sess. I do think it came out very well and reads much more naturally. (sorry verse 12 I hope to be drunk by then) Completely understood. Appreciate it and would be happy to fund beer.

dosethree wrote:: Not so, the Dickens was a contender for "Him of hard word / 3 vols" well before the Japanese hints were released hxxp://quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=754&p=15456&hilit=dickens#p15456 Noted. I still do not like the theory and I think the Oliver link is thin still. Why would the natives still speak of him? I think when they first thought of Dickens it was due to something in downtown Manhattan and even that was pretty lose.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: Completely understood. Appreciate it and would be happy to fund beer. As a professional beer drinker, that will be unnecessary haha

Speaking of Japanese translation. Let me throw this out to the group (NYC bare with me): If there was a street named “Christmas Carol Drive”’ next to South Shore Park would you think about the Dickens reference differently. I only ask because I am not sure if its “hard word” or “Oliver” part that people don’t like. With regard to hard word, even if you don’t like “chicken” clue, the translation does say you are looking for the name of an author (?agree). With regards to “Oliver” Preiss has put ‘two step riddles’ in other puzzles (like “step on copper”, copper -> penny-> Lincoln Memorial vs saying something one-step like ‘where the 16th sits’). Thoughts? Dosethree that’s an excellent point.

NYCNative wrote:: Why would the natives still speak of him? Perhaps because he trashed them in the article The Noble Savage . The Noble Savage was published in Household Words , the weekly magazine Dickens edited. The same weekly magazine where Hard Times was initially published in installments.

davinci4 wrote:: Speaking of Japanese translation. Let me throw this out to the group (NYC bare with me): If there was a street named “Christmas Carol Drive”’ next to South Shore Park would you think about the Dickens reference differently. I only ask because I am not sure if its “hard word” or “Oliver” part that people don’t like. With regard to hard word, even if you don’t like “chicken” clue, the translation does say you are looking for the name of an author (?agree). With regards to “Oliver” Preiss has put ‘two step riddles’ in other puzzles (like “step on copper”, copper -> penny-> Lincoln Memorial vs saying something one-step like ‘where the 16th sits’). Thoughts? Dosethree that’s an excellent point. It is both and the question of why the natives, any natives, would STILL be talking about him? Also, when the verse uses the word although, it seems to suggest it is someone opposite to indies native. But that might just be my interpretation of it. And yes, if that street was named Christmas Carol drive I would be knee deep in Dickens (no homo).

Start with chicken - CHarles dICKENs - check Hard - Hard Times - check 3 vols. - Sowing/Reaping/Garnering - check word - Household Words - check Natives - The Noble Savage - check Come on, this has to be wrong!

GoldenMartyr wrote:: Perhaps because he trashed them in the article The Noble Savage . The Noble Savage was published in Household Words , the weekly magazine Dickens edited. The same weekly magazine where Hard Times was initially published in installments. That is interesting! But then that makes the natives into the native american population (and not even the original native tribes of NY). Still doesn't make sense that native americans are still speaking of Dickens, who didn't write the article, just edited. Not trying to be harsh on this point, just pointing out that it seems off. I get you have to make connections from one thing to the other but this is a little much. Agree to disagree on this one friends. I just don't see it.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: Start with chicken - CHarles dICKENs - check Hard - Hard Times - check 3 vols. - Sowing/Reaping/Garnering - check word - Household Words - check Natives - The Noble Savage - check Come on, this has to be wrong! Hey, if you are positive about it, go with it! Don't forget Oliver as well!!

I think ‘the natives still speak of him’ is (could) basically saying the people of this neighborhood in Brooklyn who live on Oliver St. Connotation is that they speak of him (really one of his famous works) because they live there. ...,NYC interesting about “Christmas Carol Drive.” I completely understand your point “Christmas Carol” way more appealing than “Oliver.” Could this be a dated reference and we are not getting it because we are not living in 1982? Oliver! was a very popular broadway musical in the late 1960’s. Wikipedia actually references Oliver Twist as s reason this name rose in popularity (I think of the kid from the Brady Bunch). I could see Preiss standing at that spot and seeing “Oliver st.’ and using the name “Oliver” to invoke Charles Dickens in his clue. Its not as recognizable as “Christmas Carol” but maybe we are having difficulty given how ‘dated’ this clue might be.

davinci4 wrote:: I think ‘the natives still speak of him’ is (could) basically saying the people of this neighborhood in Brooklyn who live on Oliver St. Connotation is that they speak of him (really one of his famous works) because they live there. ...,NYC interesting about “Christmas Carol Drive.” I completely understand your point “Christmas Carol” way more appealing than “Oliver.” Could this be a dated reference and we are not getting it because we are not living in 1982? Oliver! was a very popular broadway musical in the late 1960’s. Wikipedia actually references Oliver Twist as s reason this name rose in popularity (I think of the kid from the Brady Bunch). I could see Preiss standing at that spot and seeing “Oliver st.’ and using the name “Oliver” to invoke Charles Dickens in his clue. Its not as recognizable as “Christmas Carol” but maybe we are having difficulty given how ‘dated’ this clue might be. I appreciate you trying with Dickens but I am not going to be sold on it. i get the logic but I just do not agree. And from the Japanese clues, I does not say he is for sure an author. It says it makes you think it is an author because of "volumes" . Obviously, this verse is the bitch of the bunch. it can be interpreted many different ways and the clues are vague. You can say that him of hard word in 3 vols. is a title of this person, or you can say the natives still speak of him in 3 vols.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Time ... in_No_More ? Foster = Foster Farms Chicken?

MERLIN wrote:: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Times_Come_Again_No_More ? Foster = Foster Farms Chicken? Good song that describes welfare system. Oh damn, Welfare Island again!

Of the things I bring to the forum, the people choose my half-assed Oliver St idea to be the one they run with. Dickens seems really random. But he’s also classic at this point. So maybe as random as a Thucydides reference in Boston? I mean, natives still speak of him because he’s one of the most well known and read authors in the world. Crap. I’m coming around to this idea a little.

NYC. Agree to disagree on this one. . For fun though, there are several websites that offer word association. Type in “Oliver” for example, you might be surprised what associations are at the top of the list. Remember Preiss started with ‘something’ and worked his way towards the ‘hard word’ clue we are given. Just curious from the forum. Has this area (South Shore Park at Oliver Street) been photographed or explored extensively? Anyone familiar with that area or live close by? The wooded area on the east side of the v would be interesting to look at. Phrabbot. I think it could be a major breakthrough. Like I said. This clue just may be a little dated, hence our reason for being hesitant. Ask someone in there 50-60s what comes to mind when they hear the word Oliver. Let me put it this way, if you were going to create a clue about Oliver St. What would be the first thing that comes to mind? How would you create it?

davinci4 wrote:: Just curious from the forum. Has this area (South Shore Park at Oliver Street) been photographed or explored extensively? Anyone familiar with that area or live close by? The wooded area on the east side of the v would be interesting to look at. As mentioned before, I have. The Oliver St idea is from a long time ago for me. I abandoned it and didn’t present it then because the area didn’t seem to work. Everything park related is West of Oliver St. Also that V is huge. Where’s the middle? Digging in a wooded area is going to be near impossible based on how many tree roots are in some seemingly open areas. I would imagine with so many theories in that area it’s been walked a fair amount by others as well. You should def nip down there and walk shore park and promenade, though. Interesting area. And you’ll definitely get a much better feel for what makes the most sense down there as opposed to virtual walk throughs.

The middle is a bit subjective. Hoping that when you walk from the middle East , 22 steps later you come to something that is only obvious to us. Maybe you reach the iron fence on Shore Road. Not sure. Would be nice to have some boots on the ground here. This part of the park appears relatively hidden and undisturbed.

Hi All. Just thought it might be worth listing any substantial landmarks in South Shore Park (we need a break from him of hard word ). Doesn’t seem like there are a lot of them in South Shore Park. The list of streets with non-numbers: -Bay Ridge Ave/Parkway -Mackay -Oliver -Ridge Buildings: -Fort Hamilton HS Monuments/Plaques: -Dewey/Old Glory -Memorial for Richard Cochea Any others?

Here are a couple of panoramic images from high vantage points: Top of the school’s clock tower https://tinyurl.com/y3o96at8 Drone shot? https://tinyurl.com/y6xhhsto

To be honest, I think we have a lot of information on the verse. I think we should be spend more time on the image and images in the book that could be important to the puzzle. I would love to know what is in the bubble patterns. Common answer to what it could be, even from folks who are not into the puzzle at all, is the color blind test. Perhaps we need better insight as to how the tests works and try to deconstruct it that way. If it is something in the range of color minipulation, then maybe we should focus in on a way they would do that in 1980. 3D glasses seem to have no effect but I am sure there are other ways. I remember little sheets of plastic that was used to decipher clues on cereal boxes back then. So maybe just a different color, like yellow. I would love to also know what those egg shaped orbs are. I have heard numerous theories but they fell apart, for me, when I really looked at this illustration This is the only time I have seen the egg orb anywhere else but in image 12. I see some patterns with the hair but I am not sure if it is wishful thinking, so I would like to get some other perspectives on it. Thoughts? Also, this is the illustration from the page about the Russian fair folk leaving Russia. As you can see in the far right side of the page, we have an onion dome that is obviously related to image 12's. We have a clear view of the window and it's detailed shape. Just another reason why I do not think we are visually looking for an onion domed building in NYC.

NYCNative wrote:: 3D glasses seem to have no effect but I am sure there are other ways. You missed the point of my suggestion of using the 3D glasses. The idea was to filter blue and red light since the panels are red and blue color based. To do this you need to look at the panels with single lens at a time. So if you have 3D glasses wear it then cover red lens with your hand and look at the red panel. The bluish area will pop. Color contrast is less with other panels so one may have more difficulty hence the degree of hardness.

Yes. The painting is somewhat of an enigma. In previous thread, we were discussing this observation with Kang. The issue here is whether or not this image acts more like Chicago (lots of detail) or Milwaukee (little detail). My gut feeling is that this puzzle is more ‘verse heavy’ like Milwaukee. However, there very well could be hidden clues in those bubbles. I do like Choice’s observation about the red ones, one would think the other bubbles would yield something as well. The red seems to offer more color variation than the others however. Perhaps the two non-red bubbles are supposed to be solved differently. A possible clue about ‘size ratio’ was offered in the podcast. Choice. Thank you for the aerial imagery. ..Hmm. the set of lights outlines the V very nicely in front of the playground. Would love to know if there is anything of interest, just adjacent East (between the V and Shore Road).

Choice wrote:: You missed the point of my suggestion of using the 3D glasses. The idea was to filter blue and red light since the panels are red and blue color based. To do this you need to look at the panels with single lens at a time. So if you have 3D glasses wear it then cover red lens with your hand and look at the red panel. The bluish area will pop. Color contrast is less with other panels so one may have more difficulty hence the degree of hardness. many many people have tried all kinds of filters including 3d glasses together and seperately no one has found anything ever are you saying you found something?

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=754&start=1289

maltedfalcon wrote:: many many people have tried all kinds of filters including 3d glasses together and seperately no one has found anything ever are you saying you found something? I think Choice has. As I mentioned before. I don’t think the “85 st.” is coincidental considering the area we are looking in

maltedfalcon wrote:: many many people have tried all kinds of filters including 3d glasses together and seperately no one has found anything ever are you saying you found something? I am sure someone has tried every lens possible and color combos by now. What pops up are distinct "bubbles" in a pattern. Doesn't seem to spell anything out. However, did anyone actually try the color filters with the theory of counting the bubbles and applying it to a solve area? I also tried stereogram programs and that seems to be a big no go. However, when I removed one layer, what was left was the same dominant bubbles. Meaning, we might have the right tool, just not the right method of putting it together. OR Choice has the only magic eye here and the complex puzzle of solving the panels was as easy as his proposal. I wish I could remember the name of those puzzle and games from the 80's with the plastic colored tabs that reveal messages and patterns.

NYCNative wrote:: [quote="Horace Walpole wrote:: The next Augustan age will dawn on the other side of the Atlantic. There will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at Boston, a Xenophon at New York, and, in time, a Virgil at Mexico, and a Newton at Peru. At last, some curious traveler from Lima will visit England and give a description of the ruins of St Paul’s, like the editions of Balbec and Palmyra. Sigh, The ribbons around her foot spells out "Thucydides". Start from the thing that looks like "4" on the left (T upside-down h) and go on.

Choice wrote:: Sigh, The ribbons around her foot spells out "Thucydides". Start from the thing that looks like "4" on the left (T upside-down h) and go on. Show us? I see the T you are referring to..

Show me yours! T, upside-down h, ... , backward s (Ƨ)

Choice, any thoughts on the other two bubble panels?.. NYC. Crime busters was a game that gave you the answer with a red filter provided

I got springy eyes looking at them last night. I thing I got a methodology to decipher the purple panel. I'm waiting to see what NYCnative sees in the hair so maybe I can confirm it with the result.

Choice wrote:: I got springy eyes looking at them last night. I thing I got a methodology to decipher the purple panel. I'm waiting to see what NYCnative sees in the hair so maybe I can confirm it with the result. Noope.

Onion domes could only be a map.

Going to agree with NYC on this one. I think onion domes are just there to tie in general immigration/Russian theme of painting.

There is a cat called a Russian Blue...and there is a cocktail called a Blue Russian - just trying to think of all the angles.

davinci4 wrote:: Choice, any thoughts on the other two bubble panels?.. NYC. Crime busters was a game that gave you the answer with a red filter provided The only one I could find after a cursory search was copy righted 1986. Any older ones? https://www.etsy.com/listing/544081377/ ... ry-game-12

Choice wrote:: Onion domes could only be a map. or like in chicago and cleveland they are waymarks along one of two paths.

maltedfalcon wrote:: or like in chicago and cleveland they are waymarks along one of two paths. Other than being onion domes they are nothing alike to St Nicholas or Transfiguration... That’s very off brand for Palencar. I could go with a “they’re not exact and just a representation” if he hadn’t added more little details than either of those churches have as opposed to dumbing them down a bit for more of a generic silhouette.

davinci4 wrote:: Choice, any thoughts on the other two bubble panels?.. NYC. Crime busters was a game that gave you the answer with a red filter provided good call!

That was a fun game. I actually own a copy. May have to dig it out and see I still have the red filter that came with it. ...best case scenario that onion dome is a slightly off representation of the Russian Orthodox Church in Brooklyn, otherwise was placed there to tie in Russian theme. Speaking of waymarks, the two more specific for South Shore Park include NYC’s outline of Shore Road in the lower have of the robe and Choice’s “85 st.” in the red panel. Coupled with our analysis of the verse, this seemingly now is making a much stronger case for SW Brooklyn/Shore Park. I am surprised others haven’t started to weigh in.

davinci4 wrote:: I am surprised others haven’t started to weigh in. A: The 85 St is anything but definitive. Extremely interpretative. B: It wasn't arrived at independently of people looking in South Brooklyn. South Brooklyn and Ft Hamilton HS have been the easy ideas since day one. The second anyone sees indies native, they think Hamilton, and find Hamilton on google maps. Every casual glancer at this puzzle ends up in South Brooklyn within 5 minutes unless their name is Marcus Conte. This is why no one's excited by someone forcing bubbles to confirm Ft Hamilton High School.

davinci4 wrote:: That was a fun game. I actually own a copy. May have to dig it out and see I still have the red filter that came with it. ...best case scenario that onion dome is a slightly off representation of the Russian Orthodox Church in Brooklyn, otherwise was placed there to tie in Russian theme. Speaking of waymarks, the two more specific for South Shore Park include NYC’s outline of Shore Road in the lower have of the robe and Choice’s “85 st.” in the red panel. Coupled with our analysis of the verse, this seemingly now is making a much stronger case for SW Brooklyn/Shore Park. I am surprised others haven’t started to weigh in. That is because nobody thinks the 85 is there. Seriously, read choice's posts and what he calls solves. If you seriously think he is on to something, then you are in for a long and pointless ride. We know that these bubble panels are not going to be solved by squinting and going around the negative space. We also know that Choice makes some absurd observations 60 times a day. We know he is not playing with a full deck. I know you want some things to be true, we all do. Just don't be so desperate as to jump on the slow bus with Choice.

phrabbott wrote:: A: The 85 St is anything but definitive. Extremely interpretative. B: It wasn't arrived at independently of people looking in South Brooklyn. South Brooklyn and Ft Hamilton HS have been the easy ideas since day one. The second anyone sees indies native, they think Hamilton, and find Hamilton on google maps. Every casual glancer at this puzzle ends up in South Brooklyn within 5 minutes unless their name is Marcus Conte. This is why no one's excited by someone forcing bubbles to confirm Ft Hamilton High School. Actually I never considered Fort Hamilton since I'm a casual NYC puzzle "glancer" and looking for clues as a challenge. I'm actually more gravitated towards Roosevelt Island than Hamilton. I only looked at the map when Davinci4 mentioned 85th St is where H.S. is. Then I noticed the 3 next to 5. Regarding onion domes, this one has the same window panels style as the image. https://tinyurl.com/y4eh9jqx https://tinyurl.com/yyje84wb

Yup. And nothing else in common.

Aaaahhh, the good old angry rude New Yorker attitude.

Is it though? This forum has just beaten to death the only two Onion domed structures in NYC: A: as if they’re a discovery B: as if they look anything like the picture or are near any other feature of value. It’s lazy and doesn’t progress the hunt.

They are in Brooklyn.

Choice wrote:: They are in Brooklyn. Ya down the street from where I live. I live in NYC. Brooklyn specifically.

That wasn't a question. I meant it's perhaps a marker for Brooklyn.

Choice wrote:: That wasn't a question. I meant it's perhaps a marker for Brooklyn. By that logic and interpretation of the onion domes, it could be Ellis Island or it could be or it could be St. Nicholas church. So how can this be a marker for Brooklyn? By your own logic. I would love it if you did your own research and fact checking before shotgunning your passing thoughts.

Yes. I think the terminology “leads” is most applicable when speaking of possible clues in the painting. Interpretation is subjective which is why I think they need to be supported by a strong interpretation of the verse. I think the NY puzzle is ‘verse heavy’ (unlike some others) and we are unlikely to find a “fence and fixture” or be able to “seek the columns” at the cask location. Let’s keep going. The ideas are good here and South Shore Park is the strongest contender for NY I have seen. Let’s keep ‘narrowing’ our search area. Thanks again to NYC for starting this thread.

davinci4 wrote:: Yes. I think the terminology “leads” is most applicable when speaking of possible clues in the painting. Interpretation is subjective which is why I think they need to be supported by a strong interpretation of the verse. I think the NY puzzle is ‘verse heavy’ (unlike some others) and we are unlikely to find a “fence and fixture” or be able to “seek the columns” at the cask location. Let’s keep going. The ideas are good here and South Shore Park is the strongest contender for NY I have seen. Let’s keep ‘narrowing’ our search area. Thanks again to NYC for starting this thread. Thank you guys for being cool. I will say this, even for my personal progress in this puzzle, I learned a lot from this thread. Some of which I am going to keep to myself for now. But I do think that we need to figure out image 12 before even thinking we have the right spot. While it does seem super logical with the isle of B. and the SOL image to be a great match, we still have not even spoke about the image, aside from the onion domes and the bubble panels. The bitch of the bunch is all the panels in that arch. If we want to really break ground with this puzzle, we need to really understand this image better. It seems we all find a spot and then try to make things fit the image, which we will always be able to do with almost any spot. We have so little understanding of what is going on here.

davinci4 wrote:: I think the terminology “leads” is most applicable when speaking of possible clues in the painting. Interpretation is subjective which is why I think they need to be supported by a strong interpretation of the verse. NYCNative wrote:: If we want to really break ground with this puzzle, we need to really understand this image better. It seems we all find a spot and then try to make things fit the image, which we will always be able to do with almost any spot. NYCNative wrote:: We have so little understanding of what is going on here. NYCNative wrote:: By that logic and interpretation of the onion domes, it could be Ellis Island or it could be or it could be St. Nicholas church. So how can this be a marker for Brooklyn? Conversely - I think the terminology “leads” is most applicable when speaking of possible clues in the verse. Interpretation is subjective which is why I think they need to be supported by a strong interpretation of the image. Conversely - If we want to really break ground with this puzzle, we need to really understand this verse better. It seems we all find a spot and then try to make things fit the verse, which we will always be able to do with almost any spot. Do you see the problem with this logic? No matter what you choose to do, you are piling subjectivity on top of subjectivity. [Re]Start here. ^^^^^^ This was a good point, which I hope you choose to explore...

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Conversely - I think the terminology “leads” is most applicable when speaking of possible clues in the verse. Interpretation is subjective which is why I think they need to be supported by a strong interpretation of the image. Conversely - If we want to really break ground with this puzzle, we need to really understand this verse better. It seems we all find a spot and then try to make things fit the verse, which we will always be able to do with almost any spot. Do you see the problem with this logic? No matter what you choose to do, you are piling subjectivity on top of subjectivity. [Re]Start here. ^^^^^^ This was a good point, which I hope you choose to explore... Oh Thank you old wise one!! But with all your absolutes and personality issues, I can not take anything you say seriously.

NYCNative wrote:: Oh Thank you old wise one!! But with all your absolutes... Isn't that what you are looking for?

NYCNative wrote:: There is no building that I have seen in reality that is exact to the onion domes in the image. If you look at the furthest tower in the onion dome image, it is not an onion dome at all. You wont find the piece in the Russian Orthodox church building. phrabbott wrote:: Other than being onion domes they are nothing alike to St Nicholas or Transfiguration... That’s very off brand for Palencar. I could go with a “they’re not exact and just a representation” if he hadn’t added more little details than either of those churches have as opposed to dumbing them down a bit for more of a generic silhouette. maltedfalcon wrote:: or like in chicago and cleveland they are waymarks along one of two paths. Onion domes: As others have said, this may be a symbol of Russia and the Russian Immigration link rather than a physical place we’re supposed to locate that will 100% match the image. What evidence could there be for this interpretation?: 1. The color. Something close to that light blue has been a symbol of Russia for 300 years – since Peter the Great “borrowed” the color scheme for the Russian Imperial/National flag from The Netherlands. It was even on the official Flag of the Soviet Union. Russian Imperial Flag since Peter the Great. And the Russian National Flag since 1991. (They’ve made it a slightly darker blue now). Official Flag of the Soviet Union (1954-1991) It’s also been on literally dozens of Russian and Soviet civilian and military flags and coats of arm for several hundred years. 2. NOTHING in NYC matches this exactly. We can argue all day about what comes closest. But at the end of the day, Nothing matches exactly. Period. If anyone would like to refute this, feel free to offer up a new match. None of the known ones do the trick. I agree. Transfiguration? Side domes way too small. Column under middle dome way to wide/thick. Missing ball on top of middle dome. St Nicholas? Side domes closer, but again too small. Missing ball on top of middle dome. Also, I have not a seen a convincing place once could stand and see the domes as a match. When viewed from below they appear squat and misshapen. Maybe Central Park is best option, but we know that’s out. Questions about this icon: Why does the middle dome have a ball at the top? Why is the right dome lopsided? Left side of right dome is too far left and comes down lower than right side of it does. Why? Why is the left dome too tall and not shaped like the others? Where it’s supposed to curve back inward toward the top, it does not. It seems stretched taller. Why? OK, so if it’s just a symbol of Russia, did JJP just invent it outright? It looks like nothing in real life? That’s where the symbol of Russia may really come into play. There are few churches that could be more symbolic in this case than St Basil’s in Moscow. Others have long said this may be a match. What I’d like to propose is that a picture taken from nearly the same place as the one below may have been JJP’s image reference. To match more exactly, one would need to be standing closer and maybe a little left of here: This in my opinion is the most point for point match I’ve seen. Moving closer and left would clean things up even further. Top middle dome “ball” would come down closer to JJP’s. Left pair of domes would merge in silhouette and make it appear ‘stretched” vertically, like JJP’s. Right pair of domes would merge in silhouette and give the left side a lopsided appearance like JJP’s. In silhouette, the match starts to really shine. Just my opinion, but that negative space does not appear a match to Manhattan. By far. That’s just me. And Malted Falcon – I am not convinced of your ‘literal’ path theory nor your new and improved Two Paths theory, but remain open to convincing as I may not have seen all the evidence you have. I certainly don’t rule it out. However, if St Basil’s was JJP’s inspiration - either one of your paths will need to go through Moscow – or there would need to be some other symbolism or interpretation at play, like passing a church that is “evocative” but not a literal match. Or some other such thing going on. Which there may well be. We’ll see once you reveal your NYC paths.

Wow. The empty space between the domes is pretty exact. That is pretty freaking cool! Nice one, KANG!

So Kang and I have worked extensively on the above, and I think it’s worth a serious look. After continuously pestering him about the domes, he so graciously found this amazing angle of St. Basils. Really give his circled regions a good look. It’s a very good match to all the trim pieces.

Kang. I completely agree. St Basil drawn in perspective. No question. Nice work! ...One panel we can cross off the list now. Remember too, Preiss’ intent in writing this book wasn’t just to create an epic treasure hunt but also an homage to immigration. I agree, what better symbol to use than St Basil to tie in the Russian theme.

Greatness Kang! Pretty close. https://tinyurl.com/y3mz4ooq But at the risk of getting screamed at If you stand a bit to the left then the "Manhattan" part of the gap would be even narrower. Maybe JJP manipulated the image to insert a Manhattan like feature in there. (takes cover)

Choice wrote:: Greatness Kang! But I thought St. Basil was a day that New Yorker's rung in... someplace...

ssshhhhhhh, they'll hear you! No mentioning of Times Square here!

Choice wrote:: ssshhhhhhh, they'll hear you! No mentioning of Times Square here! You mean that place that has a building with a giant statue of Ophelia above the door? OK, I'll hush.

No it can't be. The sash/belt is all wrong! https://www.flickr.com/photos/bart_rick/22338895233

Choice wrote:: No it can't be. The sash/belt is all wrong! https://www.flickr.com/photos/bart_rick/22338895233 You're right... it definitely can't be that Ophelia... the BarryMORE on the "steps" store. Maybe it's a painting of Ophelia we are looking for?

Like the windows too. https://tinyurl.com/y2vmr6yx

Hirudiniforme wrote:: You're right... it definitely can't be that Ophelia... the BarryMORE on the "steps" store.Maybe it's a painting of Ophelia we are looking for? Choice wrote:: Greatness Kang! Pretty close. https://tinyurl.com/y3mz4ooq But at the risk of getting screamed at If you stand a bit to the left then the "Manhattan" part of the gap would be even narrower. Maybe JJP manipulated the image to insert a Manhattan like feature in there. (takes cover) davinci4 wrote:: Kang. ...St Basil drawn in perspective. No question. Nice work! ...One panel we can cross off the list now. Psst! He fellas. If you're gonna post random pictures of statues of women in a long dress and pretend it's a P12 image match, please be sure they are statues in SW Brooklyn, as this is what this thread is focused on. All other random non-image matches should go in the usual Image 12 thread. (Rim shot). Thanks for your understanding. I think you may have be confused with someone else. Never any screaming from me. But I will take your question seriously and try to reason with you, if that's OK. The image you linked may be from an even better spot from my original. Well done. However, I don't think it helps make your case. Maybe the opposite. It seems that the optimal spot may be between #1 & #2 below. As you can see, the negative space gap is widening, not getting smaller. It's actually getting closer to JJP's icon. Maybe you need to remove/clean up peek-a-boo back dome from #2. After that, it's pretty spot on to the painting. No agenda needed. And one last thing, peek-a-boo blue and white dome from #1- Seriously, that's pretty spot on. Now if you want to say that negative space is a match to Manhattan. You are welcome to. But you will never convince me no matter how many times you post it. To me - and I speak only for myself - it is just not a match. Full stop. In any way, shape or form. I could pull a sock out of a drawer and it's got a 50/50 chance of being a better match. Sorry, but you're not going to convince me on this one. But you are welcome to think what you like. Well, not so fast. At best we may know the inspiration for the icon and can stop looking for a building. And that would be a win. Thing is - if it's not an image match - what does it mean and why is it there? (Why do I feel like we went from frying pan to fire) - DOH!

I'm talking about that lower Manhattan part. I don't see any possible way you could recreate that part from real picture unless it was added to. Looks just like lower Manhattan. Then it's the matter of the two small "islands" to the left of "Manhattan". P.S. I see you're using Wiki image? Download images from 12treasures.com George went true a lot of effort scanning those in hi-res.

Hi Kang. That’s an excellent question. St Basil is representative of Russia. My thought ties back to the immigration theme that Preiss put in all the puzzles, a general reference to the country of origin as NYC has suggested. We see do see similar influences in other paintings (like columns in Cleveland) where there is a strong association to the country of origin. But you are correct, there could be more here, as the Cleveland columns also helped identify the cask location in addition to helping capture the Greek theme.

Kang wrote:: Psst! He fellas. If you're gonna post random pictures of statues of women in a long dress and pretend it's a P12 image match...

I am not from NY, just researching a little. Maybe New Yorkers could weigh in here. Is Brooklyn know for its Russian immigration? Reading about Brighton Beach. I think of the Italian immigration when it comes to NYC, but maybe Russian theme was chosen due to the cask’s location in Brooklyn. NY is such a melting pot, but is it fair to say Brooklyn is specifically known for its Russian immigrants (similar to the Irish in South Boston)?

I've believed for a long time that the onion dome was an angled view of Saint Basil's, and Kang's images basically align exactly with what I've come up with. As to what it means, we're yet to know, but I'm leaning toward the overall Russian-immigration-to-the-area theme for now. I'm also of a mind that the negative space between the domes has nothing to do with the shape of Manhattan Island. I mean, I just don't see it. As for the pictures of statues of women in a long dresses that have been discussed, I'd be willing to entertain the theory of something to do with the I. Miller Building if anyone might provide something more than "the statue looks sort of like the painting." Also, as mentioned, I'd be much more interested if it had anything to do with Southwest Brooklyn, since that's where we're focusing in this general discussion.

davinci4 wrote:: maybe Russian theme was chosen due to the cask’s location in Brooklyn.

Hirudiniforme wrote::

We need a stronger wall!

Let me rephrase it. If we were to pick an immigration population for (South) Brooklyn (like Irish in South Boston), would Russian immigrants be a reasonable choice? Hard to look at this puzzle with fresh eyes sometimes, but imagine it’s 1982 and you connect this panel to St Basil’s and then to South Brooklyn. Would be an extremely helpful clue when you consider all the possibilities in NYC and greater NY area.

davinci4 wrote:: Let me rephrase it. If we were to pick an immigration population for (South) Brooklyn (like Irish in South Boston), would Russian immigrants be a reasonable choice? Yes, Russian Jews make up a huge portion of Brooklyn's southern sections, mostly based on immigration.

Choice wrote:: We need a stronger wall! is that a MAGA thing!.... >:D

MERLIN wrote:: is that a MAGA thing!.... >:D

Durian wrote:: ... Peter ... Hard ... Hide your stone-markers!

davinci4 wrote:: Let me rephrase it. If we were to pick an immigration population for (South) Brooklyn (like Irish in South Boston), would Russian immigrants be a reasonable choice? Hard to look at this puzzle with fresh eyes sometimes, but imagine it’s 1982 and you connect this panel to St Basil’s and then to South Brooklyn. Would be an extremely helpful clue when you consider all the possibilities in NYC and greater NY area. "The lone eagle" works with both Brooklyn and Roosevelt Island. Spirit of St. Louis took off from Roosevelt Airfield on Long Island which Brooklyn technically a part of. So question is Coney island or Jersey shore for summer vacation?

Durian wrote:: Forgot to mention another key thing about St. Peter, in addition to being a "rock" in three of the Gospels... We think of the word rhapsodic as meaning music. But it actually means elated. In fact, if you look it up in Merriam-Webster's dictionary, the word is defined in terms of feeling elated. This is straight from the dictionary...the caps are not mine, but the dictionary entry's: "extravagantly emotional : RAPTUROUS" Now in addition to being the rock of the church, walking on water, and being the patron saint of Peter the Great (who named St. Petersburg after him), St. Peter famously holds the keys to heaven. Think of how busy Christians believe he will be at the Rapture! The word rapture itself means feeling elated. Rapture = Rhapsodic. Literally holding the keys to heaven makes St. Peter the rhapsodic man. And if the casque is buried at St. Peter's church, it is literally in the Rapture man's soil, on the grounds of a church that bears his name. Hey Durian and welcome to the thread! I really like your perspective and your first post was very clever. I will for sure do my homework on it. I am just curious as to why you ignored the Japanese clues with your rhapsodic man interpretation? And surely you can be suggesting the verse is referencing the same person in two different ways. Also, your site location is on private property The three saints is very interesting! I will look up the spot later and get back to you. Thanks for your perspective and insight and welcome to this "branch" of hell!

I also believe that the onion dome building in the image represents Russia in general as opposed to a specific building in NYC. I was thinking that JJP may have used something local as inspiration for the building, so I did some research and found some info about St. Theodosius, a Russian Orthodox Church in Cleveland. It seems to match the onion dome building in Image 12 quite nicely. https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/48286613472/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/48286449551/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/48286559467/in/dateposted-public/

"hell is what you make it" I like the twist on Brighton Beach/West new Brighton. Are you supposed to dig on the church's property? The backside of that church is medieval cool. https://tinyurl.com/y39dp55t

Just wanted to hopefully close the loop. Kang poses a good question regarding St. Basils. It is, at first, seemingly redundant to create a Russian image in this painting. It’s very easy to pair each painting with a country of origin by using the jewels as outlined in the beginning of the book. It seems by including such an iconic image of Russia in the painting, JJP/Preiss are basically saying, ‘we want you to take extra consideration about the country of origin in this particular puzzle- it will help you.’ And clearly the Russian Immigration/South Brooklyn connection does. It also may help answer the question some have asked why he chose Russia (versus Italy or Ireland) for the theme of the NY painting. It’s not as help as the Greek origin in Cleveland, but a helpful clue nonetheless.

You should also consider st basil day (orthodox).

Durian wrote:: Yes, you are supposed to dig on the church's property. It's St. Peter's Church, and St. Peter holds the keys to heaven. He is the man for the rapture, and getting into heaven, period. Rapture is defined as elated. Rhapsodic is also defined as elated. Rapture = Rhapsodic. Miriam's even includes the word rapture in the definition of rhapsodic. So dgging in rhapsodic man's soil means digging in St. Peter's soil, literally. And the church is in the St. George neighborhood of Staten Island, on St. Mark's Pl. Three Saints for the three domes. BTW, St. George is the grey giant. St. George was a Roman soldier executed for failing to recant his Christian beliefs. For this he is considered a Great Martyr of the Eastern Orthodox and Russian Orthodox Churches. Great = Giant. And he is grey because he is always depicted in paintings as wearing knight's armor, since he was a soldier. Being "In the shadow of the grey giant" means literally being in the St. George neighborhood of Staten Island. BTW, St. Mark looks a little familiar: So we are supposed to ignore all the Japanese clues, all known patterns of the puzzles we know and have come to hate, and ignore the clear print in the book that says it wouldn't be buried in private property? Are we even playing the same game? I will say good try. I like some aspects of your theory but the rest comes of a bit lazy. You are clearly not playing within the bounds of this game and that is going to be a big issue with anyone giving a serious attempt at it.

Like I said. I don't think we are playing the same game. How strong is your theory when it took one comment to change it. Then when you change it, you still try to make it fit your original assumption. You are living in the bubble of your theory. The Japanese clue also says more about the rhapsodic man which you seem to have left out, for some reason. Sorry but I don't see the connection here, at all. The site is on someones lawn, yet you have no problem with that (WOW). Don't mean to be ultra rude, but the only thing that seems right about this is Russia. I think you should research the book in its entirety before researching more things to make you theory fit the way you hope it will.

Oh boy! Chicken rhymes with foundation. There must be a joke there. I was sweating balls (BINGO?!) thinking you were going to go with Church's Chicken!

Anyone wish to discuss the other panel in the painting? It’s not unique (a gray rectangle), but it’s significance is unclear. Accepted theory is that it one of the twin towers. Thoughts? Also, following NYC’s lead in starting this thread, just a friendly reminder to keep the discussion about South Brooklyn.

I honestly didn’t know that anyone thought it was a twin tower and I certainly don’t think that there is an accepted theory on that panel. Way too vague. The prevailing theories seem to be the Ellis Island dock or something visual and local to the site. Why red outline? All I can come up with is that the dock is surrounded in brick. You have to be careful with words like “accepted” or you’ll derail the thread as people will just argue over “who says it’s accepted!?” and then 421 and the like will show up and list every rectangle east of the Mississippi.

davinci4 wrote:: Anyone wish to discuss the other panel in the painting? It’s not unique (a gray rectangle), but it’s significance is unclear. Accepted theory is that it one of the twin towers. Thoughts? Also, following NYC’s lead in starting this thread, just a friendly reminder to keep the discussion about South Brooklyn. Just to clarify, I am all ears when it comes to hearing theories that are not about S. Brooklyn. But if I am going to give any consideration to them, I ask you do your own homework and research on them before bringing them here for people to tare apart. So far, people have chimed in with their own (non S. Brooklyn related) theories and clues but not one of them followed up with them or even had any relevance in proposing them in the first place. Durian: My intentions is not to be mean to you, although my post might be harsh. I feel no matter what is said to you, you will still believe you are 100% right about your theory. My only suggestion to you is that you get a better understanding of the book and all the elements in it. Image 12 is supposed to be one, if not the hardest puzzle in the group, I seriously doubt that it can all be solved using one central figure and ignoring everything else ( or taking it with a grain of salt). Yes, lets keep this conversation on S. Brooklyn or at very least about the verse or the image, which I think we need to cover better.

phrabbott wrote:: I honestly didn’t know that anyone thought it was a twin tower and I certainly don’t think that there is an accepted theory on that panel. Way too vague. The prevailing theories seem to be the Ellis Island dock or something visual and local to the site. Why red outline? All I can come up with is that the dock is surrounded in brick. You have to be careful with words like “accepted” or you’ll derail the thread as people will just argue over “who says it’s accepted!?” and then 421 and the like will show up and list every rectangle east of the Mississippi. LMAO. I laugh because it is true!

Yes. Sorry. “Accepted” was probably not a good word to use there. I agree. ...this is an odd panel. A rectangle is such a common shape.

Unknown: and then 421 and the like will show up and list every rectangle east of the Mississippi. Can't speak for 421, but "the like" will just point out that 12 pages into this thread, the only thing that seems to be "accepted" is that the Statue of Liberty is represented in Image 12. Carry on.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Can't speak for 421, but "the like" will just point out that 12 pages into this thread, the only thing that seems to be "accepted" is that the Statue of Liberty is represented in Image 12. Carry on. Then you obviously did not read all 12 pages. Do you always ignore the details to make your weak point strong? The point of the thread, just like any other, is not to unanimously agree and accept a theory or idea. So the like, can kiss my ass! Especially those who criticize all day long and put zero effort into making their own theories and ideas.

NYCNative wrote:: Especially those who criticize all day long and put zero effort into making their own theories and ideas. Before I respond, I'd like to know if I'm lumped in here. Do you think I am one of these people?

davinci4 wrote:: Yes. Sorry. “Accepted” was probably not a good word to use there. I agree. ...this is an odd panel. A rectangle is such a common shape. https://live.staticflickr.com/30/607081 ... 49c8_z.jpg

Merlin, I had not seen this one yet--very cool. Rectangles, rectangles everywhere... and it seems there's not one a better or worse match than the one before it. Do you have any thoughts on the red outline? Though I know I'm a bit of an a**, and my post can be construed as "shots fired," 421 does do very good work on these puzzles and their posts are rarely impulsive or unresearched.

phrabbott wrote:: 421 does do very good work on these puzzles and their posts are rarely impulsive or unresearched. And all serve a very important purpose. They may not always make sense to everyone (or anyone), but they eventually will.

MERLIN wrote:: https://live.staticflickr.com/30/607081 ... 49c8_z.jpg I thought this is well, Merlin. Just could never make it fit into anything productive, Brooklyn or not. How can we speculate what a common shape could be in reference to? There are just to many possibilities even when we use the strong clues we think we have. I think we can speculate all day on what it can be but I think it is one of the clues that will be found at the dig site and make sense. I am some point would like to do some experiments with different color filters and the hard copy of the book, go old school. I am sure its been done before but I think the hope is that it would reveal something easy like numbers or letters. In considering the podcast interview with the photographer, it may just lead to another game of counting bubbles or separating them based on size. So while tried, I would like to try different methods with the results. Whatever is there, would probably be crucial but I don't think it will be all we need. We still have the mess of clues from the water. The waves and ripples and reflections. This is where we are all going to stare at the image again and make out things that probably are not there. Obviously, we only have two solves that we can use as examples, although those puzzle are not the same beast as this one. But, if the idea is that every casque is in an area with ties to the immigration story of that puzzle, would it really be as easy and broad as saying something like Gershwin was Russian and he lived in Brooklyn, so close enough? Or would the actual spot have an undeniable Russian link to it? BP seemed to be really into the immigration theme for a reason. Hell, the entire book is dedicated to it, so hard to see why he would omit that crucial detail when picking a spot. Thoughts?

I thought the red line could possibly be a reference to Russia's Red Square - which coincidentally houses Saint Basil's in Russia.

MERLIN wrote:: I thought the red line could possibly be a reference to Russia's Red Square - which coincidentally houses Saint Basil's in Russia.

NYCNative wrote:: I am some point would like to do some experiments with different color filters and the hard copy of the book, go old school. I am sure its been done before but I think the hope is that it would reveal something easy like numbers or letters. In considering the podcast interview with the photographer, it may just lead to another game of counting bubbles or separating them based on size. So while tried, I would like to try different methods with the results. Whatever is there, would probably be crucial but I don't think it will be all we need. I think that if you're going to try light gel overlays, start with a magenta and [yellow?] that are similar to the solid panels. Maybe that's their purpose.

NYC. I always adopted a more simple theory for the water/waves. Other than hiding the coordinates, the generally imagery is a shore= Shore Road Park or Shore Road. Thoughts? I don’t want to fall into the trap of overthinking these two much... The bubbles seem like quite a different story. ....

davinci4 wrote:: NYC. I always adopted a more simple theory for the water/waves. Other than hiding the coordinates, the generally imagery is a shore= Shore Road Park or Shore Road. Thoughts? I don’t want to fall into the trap of overthinking these two much... The bubbles seem like quite a different story. .... I agree I think it just means you can see water from the site.

I don’t know... it seems like devoting 1/3 of a painting to water with crazy waves and squiggles should be more than just “we’re near water”

Durian wrote:: Definitely. I am certain the patterns in the water have a meaning to the puzzle. But let's take a step back: We are looking at a complete seascape. No land. Why? Why are there three drops of water? Why is the central figure able to rise above the waves? Why is the only other living thing a seabird? I believe explaining why these choices were made in the image design will probably go a long way towards solving the puzzle. Why assume they are water drops?

phrabbott wrote:: I don’t know... it seems like devoting 1/3 of a painting to water with crazy waves and squiggles should be more than just “we’re near water” I hear you, of course it could depend on how prominent a feature the water near the site is.

It would seem durian is hinting that it’s on an island in that sage-like way people like to present theories here

phrabbott wrote:: sage ... in all fields.

I think it’s more than just water near the site given the appearance of the surf/tide. There are distinct possibilities on how to interpret it. Let me reverse it. If one were trying to convey the idea of a “Shore” wouldn’t this image be the way you would represent it? Also, consider the discussion of both verse and image thus far in this thread regarding South Brooklyn/Shore Road Park. I think is similar relationship to how the liberty bell was used in Cleveland. Just my opinion, but I think the word “Shore” was specifically meant to be drawn from this part of the painting.

For me, it is a little hard to believe that everything in the water just is symbolic of one thing, there is just to much going on there. Sure there is a general theme of the shore or near the river, but for sure there is more to it then just that.

Durian wrote:: Why is the only other living thing a seabird? Do you think that seabird has an eagle or turtle head?

NYCNative wrote:: For me, it is a little hard to believe that everything in the water just is symbolic of one thing, there is just to much going on there. Sure there is a general theme of the shore or near the river, but for sure there is more to it then just that. Don’t forget JJP did hide the coordinates in there as well. Will be curious to see if the group finds anything more. .. NYC. Total side note. I did go through the passages in the book. I looked at the introduction, as well as the fairy in NY and those with Russian ancestry. The only thing that stood out (and I know you are not going to like this observation) was the Tax Burden giving money to orphans...Oliver Twist. Anyone?

davinci4 wrote:: Oliver Twist. Anyone? I'm in... hxxp://www.traceguthrie.com/lifesize-sculptures/oliver-twist New thread... I8/V10... who's makin' it?

Yes, the body is albatross not the head.

Choice wrote:: Yes, the body is albatross not the head. A double eagle on an eagle? Wew!

Columbus Circle/USS Maine memorial area is all about sea. Is that thing on the nose of the ship an eagle or turtle?! https://tinyurl.com/yyqg3lz4

Hirudiniforme wrote:: A double eagle on an eagle? Wew! Choice wrote:: 46 being 2 X 23:00, 11PM. Comon', Choice.... a 2 and a 3... Where's times square again?

Broadway/46 On an unrelated subject!: The birds feet form the same pattern as the woman's left hand fingers. Look where it points to.

Choice wrote:: the birds feet form the same pattern as the woman's left hand fingers. Isn't that the islanders logo?

Fair. Let me just say that given the fact they are blue, and in an image relying heavily on water, they likely are. Unless you don't think the water below the floating lady is water? Is that a fair assumption?[/quote] It doesn't seem likely to me. They are egg shaped, not tear shaped like a drop. The have more then one color, and also, the only other image in the book that has the same exact shape, is a woman balancing or pointing to it. I see no reason why it would just be a water drop.

Choice wrote:: P.S. I see you're using Wiki image? Download images from 12treasures.com. George went true a lot of effort scanning those in hi-res. ] davinci4 wrote:: I am not from NY, just researching a little. Maybe New Yorkers could weigh in here. Is Brooklyn know for its Russian immigration? Reading about Brighton Beach. I think of the Italian immigration when it comes to NYC, but maybe Russian theme was chosen due to the cask’s location in Brooklyn. NY is such a melting pot, but is it fair to say Brooklyn is specifically known for its Russian immigrants (similar to the Irish in South Boston)? idyl wrote:: Yes, Russian Jews make up a huge portion of Brooklyn's southern sections, mostly based on immigration. davinci4 wrote:: Just wanted to hopefully close the loop. Kang poses a good question regarding St. Basils. It is, at first, seemingly redundant to create a Russian image in this painting. It’s very easy to pair each painting with a country of origin by using the jewels as outlined in the beginning of the book. It seems by including such an iconic image of Russia in the painting, JJP/Preiss are basically saying, ‘we want you to take extra consideration about the country of origin in this particular puzzle- it will help you.’ ..…. Sorry for the delay. Just catching up on today's posts. Only for pics I post here. George's files are fantastic but so hi-res I have to scale them down or what I post comes out obnoxiously large. Thanks again George! First - davinci4 - You would be correct in your feeling that that the number of Russian immigrants to NYC are way down the list of immigrant groups for NYC. More well known groups and more numerous would include Italians, Irish, Puerto Rico and Chinese and others. And I'd like to push back a bit on Idyl's assertion here. Here's a primer on Brooklyn's neighborhoods. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brooklyn_neighborhoods . Russians or Russian Jews are not and have not been particularly noteworthy in Southwest Brooklyn, which is defined as Bay Ridge, Fort Hamilton, Bensonhurst, Bath Beach, New Utrecht, Borough Park, Dyker Heights, Sunset Park. The vast majority of Jewish immigrants and/or Russian immigrants settled in Brighton Beach or Sheepshead Bay - both of which are South Brooklyn not Southwest Brooklyn - or in Manhattan's Lower East Side. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Americans_in_New_York_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_New_York What group IS Southwest Brooklyn particularly known for (well, used to be known for)? Hint: Leif Erikson Park, Vinland Playgroud and Leif Erikson Parkway are not accidentally named. The whole area, including Bay Ridge used to have SO many Norwegians, it was called "Little Norway." They still have a Norwegian Day Parade every May 17th. https://www.norwegianamerican.com/heritage/norwegian-brooklyn/ https://forgotten-ny.com/2006/06/norse-code-in-bay-ridge/ I believe this is a very important statement. Does Cleveland leap to mind when you think of Greek immigration? Or Persians in Houston? What if there’s something else going on here?? If Russians or Jewish immigrants are not particularly associated with Southwest Brooklyn, what gives? No Russian church very nearby. No Famous Russian residents. No Russian Park. No Russian statue or monument that’s catching anyone’s eye. Maybe what’s needed is something outside the box. Davinci4 and Idyl, if you have not already, I urge you to give my post below a read and the document/analysis within. Particularly Parts 2 & 4. It theorizes that for some of the puzzles, what if the immigration link (and related clues) were more about where the Fair Folk immigrated and the places they are drawn to - than about Man’s immigration. hxxp://quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=7258&start=480#p153116

Durian wrote:: So back to the albatross... does anyone have any idea why JJP seems to have rendered the woman's eyes with the distinctive black markings of an albatross? Seems to me this is a fairly important clue. Especially when taken in context of the bird in the image. It appears to me to be part of a repeated clue, empahsized. i have no idea how you made a connection between the bird in the image, an albatross, and the woman's eyes. The head is obviously something of a eagle, and we have a few famous ones in NY to choose from. the body, one would assume is closer to that of a seagull, which would make sense for New York harbor. More sense then a bird that doesn't exist in this part of the country. I am curious. Which came first in your thoughts. The woman has eyes like an albatross, so therefor the bird is one or vice versa?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: ... in all fields. We have made the path righteous https://previews.123rf.com/images/herma ... ation-.jpg

Reminds me of the Confucius quote for pointing finger!

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Isn't that the islanders logo? The negative space (thanks Kang!) looks like Jersey Devils logo.

Choice wrote:: The negative space (thanks Kang!) looks like Jersey Devils logo. [/quote][/quote] Thanks for???

For the term negative space!

Hi Kang. Thank you for sharing that document. For others on this thread, please take a chance to review it. It is the most comprehensive review of the storyline in relationship to the puzzles I have read to date. One thought, your review of Bay Ridge and Norwegian immigration was excellent. Thinking Norwegian theme in NY would have tipped people off to Bay Ridge almost immediately, hence reason for not choosing it. With regards to the painting, I was intrigued by the idea that the Russian Cathedral could represent something more. As I mentioned, the Greek references in the Cleveland painting not only served as on site markers but pointed to a specific area in the cultural gardens. I suppose searchers here come from two perspectives in trying to solve this hunt. Trying to take parts of images and match them to certain areas (‘image heavy’) and those that are more grounded in the verse that use image associations as ‘waymarks’ along the path. I have always adopted the latter approach because I do feel this hunt could be solved without any image confirmers at all, although they would bring far more confidence if present. With regards to this painting, the Russian Cathedral and gray rectangle have yet to yield any significant clues with regards to Shore Park/South Brooklyn. My question for the group is two-fold: are we looking in the right area? How much weight do we give the painting with regards to image confirmers? I happen to believe we are in the right area, and the painting yields minimal clues in comparison to other solutions in Cleveland and Chicago.

Can anyone tell me what the name of this building is or the function of it's purpose? It is on the Corner of Washington and Empire. Thanks! https://ibb.co/Tm2qswf

https://www.brownstoner.com/architectur ... boulevard/ Brooklyn Central Office, Bureau of Fire Communications

maltedfalcon wrote:: https://www.brownstoner.com/architecture/building-of-the-day-35-empire-boulevard/ Brooklyn Central Office, Bureau of Fire Communications Thanks! Do you know if the communications tower was added to the grounds? Post 80's or pre?

the tower looks smaller in 1980 but that could just be a bad photo check yourself https://www.historicaerials.com/viewer and google earth pro

maltedfalcon wrote:: the tower looks smaller in 1980 but that could just be a bad photo check yourself https://www.historicaerials.com/viewer and google earth pro Great! Thanks!

I like to point a couple of minute inconsistencies in the window. It's missing a couple of sections on top as if the frame is cracked/broken. Also the smaller red and white panes seem to be shattered, disguised by bird's wing and tail feathers. Two possibilities I can think of: 1) There was a push to renovate Roosevelt Island in the 70s. Strecker Memorial Laboratory has similar broken windows. 2) The missing/broken lines on top of the window frame could be a word play. Broke line ...

I am not convinced there are any ‘site specific’ confirmers in this painting. Only general clues to the area or clues that could help lead one to the site.

davinci4 wrote:: I am not convinced there are any ‘site specific’ confirmers in this painting. Only general clues to the area or clues that could help lead one to the site. pretty sure both the clock and the bird are site confirmers.

Hi Malted. Could you tell me which site you are thinking? is there a strong interpretation of the verse to support those confirmers?

davinci4 wrote:: Hi Malted. Could you tell me which site you are thinking? is there a strong interpretation of the verse to support those confirmers? hope to dig it soon so no and yes, otherwise I wouldn dig

NYCNative wrote:: I thought this is well, Merlin. Just could never make it fit into anything productive, Brooklyn or not. How can we speculate what a common shape could be in reference to? There are just to many possibilities even when we use the strong clues we think we have. I think we can speculate all day on what it can be but I think it is one of the clues that will be found at the dig site and make sense. I am some point would like to do some experiments with different color filters and the hard copy of the book, go old school. I am sure its been done before but I think the hope is that it would reveal something easy like numbers or letters. In considering the podcast interview with the photographer, it may just lead to another game of counting bubbles or separating them based on size. So while tried, I would like to try different methods with the results. Whatever is there, would probably be crucial but I don't think it will be all we need. We still have the mess of clues from the water. The waves and ripples and reflections. This is where we are all going to stare at the image again and make out things that probably are not there. Obviously, we only have two solves that we can use as examples, although those puzzle are not the same beast as this one. But, if the idea is that every casque is in an area with ties to the immigration story of that puzzle, would it really be as easy and broad as saying something like Gershwin was Russian and he lived in Brooklyn, so close enough? Or would the actual spot have an undeniable Russian link to it? BP seemed to be really into the immigration theme for a reason. Hell, the entire book is dedicated to it, so hard to see why he would omit that crucial detail when picking a spot. Thoughts? NYC. The immigration tie could be a double edged sword. After reading Kang’s analysis of the book, it’s possible that hiding the cask in an area associated with the country of origin could be too much of a clue. For example, hiding the Boston cask in the North End. Still though most of the paintings don’t place that ‘extra emphasis’ on country of origin like NY and Cleveland. You still wonder if there is more here.

Unknown: hope to dig it soon Wow. Houston, and now New York. Sounds ambitious. The best of luck to you Matt.

I had to take some time off and really consider some options and methods. The possibilities are endless with this puzzle. It has been amazing to see us all read and look at the same thing and still come up with so many different perspectives. And although I seem harsh when commenting on others ideas, I am not trying to personally bash you. I am however bashing the hell out of your theory , most of the time. I am not convinced nor can I be, that BP and JJP changed their styles, personalities and ignored what was written in the book just to make a more challenging puzzle in image 12/v10. the immigration issue is a big one. I do think the lost spot in this hunt will have specific ties to Russian heritage. It seems out of range to think that it will be a loss association like saying it is in Brooklyn, Gershwin is from there, so anywhere in Brooklyn is Russian related or Brooklyn has a lot of Russian Immigrants, thus the connection.

maltedfalcon wrote:: hope to dig it soon so no and yes, otherwise I wouldn dig Best of luck to you!! I do hope this thing is coming to a close soon!

Unknown: And although I seem harsh when commenting on others ideas, I am not trying to personally bash you. I am however bashing the hell out of your theory , most of the time. There is, IMO, only one way this puzzle is going to be solved legitimately and NYC has summed it up nicely in the sentences above. Bash the hell out of any and all theories to see what survives the crucible. This can, however, be done respectfully. In other words, there is a vast difference between "you are stupid" and "your idea is stupid".

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: There is, IMO, only one way this puzzle is going to be solved legitimately and NYC has summed it up nicely in the sentences above. Bash the hell out of any and all theories to see what survives the crucible. This can, however, be done respectfully. In other words, there is a vast difference between "you are stupid" and "your idea is stupid". Thank you! This guy gets it!

We have got off track a little over last few days. Here is another idea I wanted to put out to the group. The Anatomy of the V: 1. V vs Y. In scouting potential dig spots one thought crossed my mind recently with regards to the “v”s when looking “in Shore Park. Most of them are “Y” or Forks. There are few true V paths that originate from a single point, like Oliver Street for example. Most are paths that branch, like the former one at Fort Hamilton HS. 2. “Simple roots”. I think this clue is a detail that may be slightly overlooked. Preiss has a habit of avoiding ambiguity when a potential choice needs to be made, a “choose your own adventure if you will.” In this puzzle for example, at the border of Manhattan there are several parkways, pick 278 ‘the one over the slender path’, 278 splits, pick Belt (vs BQE) because it’s near the shore. When faced with the choice of walking east from one branch, choose the one that leads to ‘simple roots.’ Presumably grass here. I am just theorizing, but I would imagine the cask location has two distinctly different terrains East from both branches of the v, hence the reason for including this detail. One major reason JPJ Park never worked for me. Hope this helps a little when considering a location.

V also could mean 5 o'clock direction. Or one branch of 5.

Maybe? One branch of the V, Military branch = NA-VY? From the Brooklyn Naval Yard south , Flatbush and Washington form a V. https://ibb.co/BChVJCy

davinci4 wrote:: We have got off track a little over last few days. Here is another idea I wanted to put out to the group. The Anatomy of the V: 1. V vs Y. In scouting potential dig spots one thought crossed my mind recently with regards to the “v”s when looking “in Shore Park. Most of them are “Y” or Forks. There are few true V paths that originate from a single point, like Oliver Street for example. Most are paths that branch, like the former one at Fort Hamilton HS. 2. “Simple roots”. I think this clue is a detail that may be slightly overlooked. Preiss has a habit of avoiding ambiguity when a potential choice needs to be made, a “choose your own adventure if you will.” In this puzzle for example, at the border of Manhattan there are several parkways, pick 278 ‘the one over the slender path’, 278 splits, pick Belt (vs BQE) because it’s near the shore. When faced with the choice of walking east from one branch, choose the one that leads to ‘simple roots.’ Presumably grass here. I am just theorizing, but I would imagine the cask location has two distinctly different terrains East from both branches of the v, hence the reason for including this detail. One major reason JPJ Park never worked for me. Hope this helps a little when considering a location. We are way off track that what was intended. But such is the chaos of trying to organize anything on a forum. I think trying to find a v path, then a dig site is very premature at this point. We have a good idea of what we think the verse can mean but we have no idea if it is true. We have taken the verse and used it to describe a neighborhood. It can very well be that the verse was just describing a much smaller area, maybe something inside a park. Seems like a a waste of time trying to find a v path when all the questions leading up to the v have not been solved or settled. Sometimes you have to go a few steps backwards to get a few steps forward. I don't think we are going to get a lot out of any of these threads since it is just mostly absurd theories and interpretations over the occasional good lead (which gets ignored). My best advice, find like minded people you can connect with, and make a study group off the forums. Otherwise, this is a giant waste of time.

Goonie68 wrote:: Maybe? One branch of the V, Military branch = NA-VY? From the Brooklyn Naval Yard south , Flatbush and Washington form a V. https://ibb.co/BChVJCy Coastguard was part of transportation dept. not military then. That's if you mean 5 branches. If V for victory, signing of the peace then sure.

NYC. I hear you. Although the boards can sometimes get off track, I think you have a good thread going here. I too wish there was a better way to organize the info, Wikipedia style. Where we would pin virtual clues/leads on a board, and try to connect the dots with strings. Similar to old-fashioned detective movies. With regards to this puzzle, I think we have narrowed down the search radius considerably and answered a lot of the verses, with particular attention to Shore Park. I think the missing link is “Him of Hard Word,” trying to see if we can somehow bridge the gap from what we have to the rest of the poem, paying particular attention to instructions at the cask site. Hoping we will have that “ah ha” moment where it all comes together.

Goonie68 wrote:: One branch of the V, Military branch = NA-VY? From the Brooklyn Naval Yard south , Flatbush and Washington form a V Not so outlandish. And you don’t need the Brooklyn Navy Yard for it either. A whole stretch of what is now Shore Park used to be a Naval installation. Navy barracks…. https://www.heyridge.com/2016/02/the-untold-story-of-how-shore-road-almost-didnt-become-a-park/

Unknown: My best advice, find like minded people you can connect with, and make a study group off the forums. I'm pretty sure that this is already happening. And I'm pretty sure that the one thing these groups have in common is a belief that whatever theory they are working on is better than all the other theories that others are working on. Like minded people are fine, but to the extent that 421 and I have made progress, it's because initially, we couldn't agree on anything.

davinci4 wrote:: The Anatomy of the V: 1. V vs Y. In scouting potential dig spots one thought crossed my mind recently with regards to the “v”s when looking “in Shore Park. Most of them are “Y” or Forks. There are few true V paths that originate from a single point, like Oliver Street for example. Most are paths that branch, like the former one at Fort Hamilton HS. Let's talk about v shaped paths. Davinci, I am not picking on you or your Oliver St theory. You are not the first to question things about a v shaped path. I'm just using it an example. I don't care who you are. If you have a theory that the v shape is a path - it's not a v shape. V vs. Y is all a kerfuffle. It's just something that someone throws up when they like a different spot with a path or thinks the V is not path related at all. Directions: "Go up that way and bear left at the V." Something normal humans say. NO ONE nitpicks and says "bear left at the V - but really you know it's a Y because the path you're on now also counts so it's not a V - gotcha!" That's not a thing. Davinci -if the path of approach (or anything else connecting to) counts, Oliver St is not a V either. When adding the sidewalk, it's a crazy Y like #2 below. None of that mean's it's not Oliver st. It just means "Y" shaped paths are not disqualified. Below are some other examples of a V path - with other stuff attached. Are none of them V's? Cause if you're using a path the ONLY one that's a true V is the last one. A path that's a V in a sea of grass. With no way into it or out of it. Which would be pretty dumb. I don't think BP set this up so that you can only solve it if you parachute in.... ...End of rant....

LOL. Good point Kang. One could see how Preiss might have picked his “v” based on any one of the diagrams you have provided. ...I like the Oliver St “v” but only because I don’t have a better one. I am running under the assertion (hopefully) that “Him of Hard word” will pinpoint our final site. I guess I am stuck on the idea that the v is a path because he asks us to walk from one branch. If it was a V (Roman numeral 5) on a monument that would seem to fit. Why would you have to start at one branch. Maybe the question is what are things could be a V? Kang. Just curious. We have had some great discussion over the last two weeks on this thread. I am still not convinced we have got the correct spot either. Are you leaning towards one area? Are we too narrow in just focusing on Shore Park? Will we always question the location until “Him of Hard word” makes sense with respect to a specific cask site? Feel like we are seeing some light at the end of the tunnel, but haven’t gotten there (yet).

davinci4 wrote:: Kang. Just curious. We have had some great discussion over the last two weeks on this thread. I am still not convinced we have got the correct spot either. Are you leaning towards one area? davinci4 wrote:: I am running under the assertion (hopefully) that “Him of Hard word” will pinpoint our final site. I have a final area/feature. And a small dig site and specific dig spots. Recovery effort underway. Fingers crossed. Unfortunately I can't say more at the moment. I truly believe that some non-Chi/Cleve thinking is needed here - and that the things in my analysis document will also help. In the near-future I will have either found it or exhausted all recovery strategies I can muster. At that point, I will post my interpretations for all to evaluate. If I fail, maybe there are some nuggets in there that will help someone smarter than me figure it out. (Or I'm entirely wrong and it's a moot point). I make no claims. This puzzle is a funny thing. It you make an assumption like that YOU WILL (right or wrong) find a Him of Hard word theory that will pinpoint a final site for you. Some people seem to get stuck at that spot at that point and bend everything else to fit. Not saying that's what's happening with you. It's just a risk. I try to not make assumptions of that sort, but rather try to let the clues lead me where BP wants me to go. NO idea if I'm succeeding, mind you! Things being what they are with this puzzle, the only way to KNOW (really know) you''ve got it right is to dig one up. And no one's done that in 15 years...

Unknown: Recovery effort underway. Fingers crossed. The best of luck to you as well.

Kang I do wish you best of luck in your recovery efforts as well..most of the fun in these hunts, I find, is the process of exploring new ideas and discussion that develops on the forum as a result. For example, I was convinced the cask was in JPJ for years until just a few weeks ago. The ideas presented here have generated new thoughts and taken me in different directions than I previously considered. As I told NYC, this particular thread has been one of the most enjoyable (and insightful) threads I have been on in a long time. I do hope we can continue our discussion.

davinci4 wrote:: Kang I do wish you best of luck in your recovery efforts as well..most of the fun in these hunts, I find, is the process of exploring new ideas and discussion that develops on the forum as a result. For example, I was convinced the cask was in JPJ for years until just a few weeks ago. The ideas presented here have generated new thoughts and taken me in different directions than I previously considered. As I told NYC, this particular thread has been one of the most enjoyable (and insightful) threads I have been on in a long time. I do hope we can continue our discussion.

Thank you Ren, Davinci4 and NYCNative.

Good luck Kang and hurry before Dambala get there 1st!

Choice wrote:: Good luck Kang and hurry before Dambala get there 1st!

Goonie68 wrote:: Maybe? One branch of the V, Military branch = NA-VY? From the Brooklyn Naval Yard south , Flatbush and Washington form a V. https://ibb.co/BChVJCy One branch of the V: Navy's connection to Russia: USS Maine Memorial --> Cuba [island] --> Cuban missile crises with USSR Coast Guard connection: Founded by Hamilton, base on Governors Island [island]

I created a discord channel so that we may continue conversations on this topic as well as open some new ones on image 12/v10. Perhaps if we have the ability to have a closed group, without unneeded distractions, we can make a bit more progress. No offense to those on the spectrum. It is just difficult to build on a conversation when others just want to post every brain fart they have as a possible solve. Anyone who would like to join are welcomed! pm me for invite. On a separate note: Props to anyone going out to dig/probe in this HEAT! That is more dedication that even I have! Best of luck!

NYCNative wrote:: I created a discord channel... others just want to post every brain fart they have as a possible solve Translation: "My farts smell better than your farts."

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Translation: "My farts smell better than your farts." Interesting translation. Sounds like you are projecting more then translating. Don't fret. One day your posts will make total sense.....One day.

NYCNative wrote:: Props to anyone going out to dig/probe in this HEAT! That is more dedication that even I have! Best of luck! Hirudiniforme wrote:: Translation: "My farts smell better than your farts." No luck today. Unless rocks count, which they don’t. Renovator – you can cross an additional 0.00000001% of NYC off the list of where it might be. That’s the only good news. Much as I’d love some good fart humor, let me try a different tact. Posting in the Image 12 thread is like tying a rope around a tree and pulling. But that tree is not going anywhere because there are 10 other groups with their own rope pulling the tree in another direction. Then it devolves into a fight about who’s rope is better and which way is the right way to pull and nothing goes anywhere. NYCNative created this thread as an experiment to see if a conversation could be more constructive if all the folks there were pulling in the same direction. Is it the right direction? Who knows. If someone posts there that the woman in the dress looks like a statue in Dyker Heights and someone wants to critique that by saying that it’s not a match because the hair, dress and arms are totally not a match, that’s constructive and so be it. But if you just post over an over again that the match is to a statue in Eisenhower Park on Long Island, then you’re just trolling this thread. And then it devolves into aforementioned mudslinging. Go ahead with your ideas. But I think NYCNative would ask you to please post them in the Image 12 thread. People reading this thread will see it. And respond there if they like. An experiment like this to see if it might reduce the unnecessary aggressiveness around here is worth a try. Because it’s needed.

Unknown: Don't fret. One day your posts will make total sense.....One day. Man, I certainly hope so.

Even if it doesn't at least he had fun doing it. I take that over being miserable and angry any day!

Goonie68 wrote:: Maybe? One branch of the V, Military branch = NA-VY? From the Brooklyn Naval Yard south , Flatbush and Washington form a V. https://ibb.co/BChVJCy Another possibility: The red outlined rectangle may be Central Park. Since BP mentioned that there's no treasure in the park then red outline perhaps means "no go zone". The south side is not red. There, to the west corner is the USS Maine Memorial, representing the Navy and to the east the Grand Army Plaza. Statue of the winged 'v'ictory has a mean looking face and hair line similar to the painting. https://tinyurl.com/y6y6e2az The road below outlined by light blue would be 59th St.

Unknown: Another possibility: I wonder which is greater, the number of "possibilities" or the bandwith on this forum.

Brilliant

Hi All. Giving more thought to some of the discussion about of “him of word.” Maybe much more of a direct approach than the Charles Dickens interpretation. I like the area we are looking in and decided to explore a few more ideas about the streets with proper names including Oliver Street. ‘Him of hard word in three vols’= Oliver Wendell Holmes Three volumes of ‘Breakfast Table’ series: 1) Autocrat at the Breakfast Table 2) Professor at the Breakfast Table 3) Poet at the Breakfast Table Chapter 5 in Autocrat: “As soon as his breath comes back, he very probably begins to expend it in hard words.” Looking at Britannica and Wikipedia, this collection seems to be among his or possibly most famous work. Japanese clue aside, it seems to make sense. Thoughts?

Oliver Wendell Holmes was born in Boston. How about the Indie part?

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: I wonder which is greater, the number of "possibilities" or the bandwith on this forum. I think the forum already has the perfect person in place to test the limits of both.

p.s. Balls

Choice wrote:: Oliver Wendell Holmes was born in Boston. How about the Indie part? Two different clues/two different lines: 1) Indies Native is Alexander Hamilton i.e. Fort Hamilton 2) Him of Hard word is Oliver Wendell Holmes I.e. Oliver Street

davinci4 wrote:: Two different clues/two different lines: 1) Indies Native is Alexander Hamilton i.e. Fort Hamilton 2) Him of Hard word is Oliver Wendell Holmes I.e. Oliver Street Sounds promising!

NYCNative, I think maybe you need to read a little more carefully before you launch a tirade. Charles Dickens and Oliver Wendell Holmes are - ummm - Two different people. Davinci's post has nothing to do with Dickens at all. They are putting forth another idea for a possibility and asking for other's opinion on the idea. No harm in that. And it is exactly what you are unnecessarily screaming at Davinci to do. Lay off the Dickens and look for another answer. So maybe think about calming down a bit...

Kang wrote:: NYCNative, I think maybe you need to read a little more carefully before you launch a tirade. Charles Dickens and Oliver Wendell Holmes are - ummm - Two different people. Davinci's post has nothing to do with Dickens at all. They are putting forth another idea for a possibility and asking for other's opinion on the idea. No harm in that. And it is exactly what you are unnecessarily screaming at Davinci to do. Lay off the Dickens and look for another answer. So maybe think about calming down a bit... I read it wrong. I thought he was using Dickens, to get to Oliver, to make OWH fit. My fault.

No problem. ..NYC, have you visited Vinland Park recently or familiar with area?

davinci4 wrote:: No problem. ..NYC, have you visited Vinland Park recently or familiar with area? I am familiar with the area but I have not been to it in sometime. What are you thinking? Also, sent you your invite to the discord.

Just wondering if ‘anything of interest’ that I could be missing from google maps. Also trying to gauge where 22 steps east would be from each branch of that v that I like so much... thanks! Just got it.

davinci4 wrote:: Just wondering if ‘anything of interest’ that I could be missing from google maps. Also trying to gauge where 22 steps east would be from each branch of that v that I like so much... thanks! Just got it. I don't think there is much in that area but the baseball field and playground. That entire area (Shore park) has very few landmarks or places that stand out.

Hi All. Just a thought here. When looking at the parks where the other casks were recovered (Grant Park and Cultural Gardens), and some of the prevailing theories where current casks are buried (Lake Park, FOY, Elizabethan Gardens), Shore Park just seems like an odd location. Compared to other locations, it seems to lack the “The Secret vibe” (in terms of monuments, culture, aesthetics). Also, there are so many choices in NY or Brooklyn (Prospect, Sunset). I know that’s subjective but it’s just an odd feeling when you look at this area. I like it on paper (all the clues seem to point there) but it just doesn’t ‘feel’ right. I have tried to make these verses worth with other parks, as yet, they don’t seem to fit either. For arguments sake, you could argue that Prospect is south of Blackwell’s Island, but how do you take the branch over the slender path? where is Hamilton? Yes, I suppose there is a Carroll street (?Christmas Carol). Just taking a step back for a moment. just curious what others think of Shore Park.

davinci4 wrote:: Hi All. Just a thought here. When looking at the parks where the other casks were recovered (Grant Park and Cultural Gardens), and some of the prevailing theories where current casks are buried (Lake Park, FOY, Elizabethan Gardens), Shore Park just seems like an odd location. Compared to other locations, it seems to lack the “The Secret vibe” (in terms of monuments, culture, aesthetics). Also, there are so many choices in NY or Brooklyn (Prospect, Sunset). I know that’s subjective but it’s just an odd feeling when you look at this area. I like it on paper (all the clues seem to point there) but it just doesn’t ‘feel’ right. I have tried to make these verses worth with other parks, as yet, they don’t seem to fit either. For arguments sake, you could argue that Prospect is south of Blackwell’s Island, but how do you take the branch over the slender path? where is Hamilton? Yes, I suppose there is a Carroll street (?Christmas Carol). Just taking a step back for a moment. just curious what others think of Shore Park. I thought the same thing at one point. I kept in mind that one of the points BP was trying to make is that people should go out and enjoy these cities, the cultures, and the sights. When looking at Rockerfeller park and Grant park as well as the other parks in consideration, such as Golden Gate, I got the idea that these places have much to offer a casque hunter, even if they do not find one. Thought there was a theme there which would mean we are looking for a place with museums nearby, planetariums, zoo's, ect. A tourist spot mostly and one that has a cultural theme that matches somewhere in the park. Central park seems seems way to obvious. You can make a lot of things fit there as well. There are really good central park theories out there but they are a bit loose. If it is there, the biggest problem would be to dig it out. Of course you are going to encounter resistance here because of the trickled down story of BP sending an email to a user of the forum saying no casque is there, which I always felt a bit suspicious about. Then again,everything in this puzzle makes you second guess everything. Prospect park is much of the same but I would say the central park theory is stronger or just more clever. We tried hard to make things fit in that park and it just never went anywhere promising. NYC is a tough place for this type of hunt because there are so many historical landmarks and attractions that could fit the overall theme of hunt. Old Glory is not within the theme of a tourist attraction, although it still does have its rich history and attractions. But there are absolutely no certainties in this game. From what I have seen, from being at the site, and from our discussions here, I still say it is the site with the most promise and the better matches, so far. Obviously there are others who are convinced they have a solve and I sincerely hope they do and they dig it out soon. I will say that Bay Ridge is a really out of the way location and odd compared to the two solves. Perhaps this was his idea on how to make this puzzle so much more difficult then the rest. Making the site the opposite of what you expect.

davinci4 wrote:: just curious what others think of Shore Park. You seem to be going through the standard stages of considering South Brooklyn. Haha. Everything you’ve discussed is why many of us liked and then abandoned the Bay Ridge area at some time. But with this hunt, I’ve found I keep crawling back to locations I considered and abandoned years ago. I know I believed the “major culture, major park required” theory for a while and have spoken to others that shared that sentiment as well, but I really don’t think we know enough to impose that kind of restriction. And having worked pretty much every major park in Brooklyn, Staten Island, and Manhattan extensively, I’ve found that all we can really do is follow the clues. I’d take some time and scan the i12 and v10 threads for more info as this has been discussed extensively.

phrabbott wrote:: You seem to be going through the standard stages of considering South Brooklyn. Haha. Everything you’ve discussed is why many of us liked and then abandoned the Bay Ridge area at some time. But with this hunt, I’ve found I keep crawling back to locations I considered and abandoned years ago. I know I believed the “major culture, major park required” theory for a while and have spoken to others that shared that sentiment as well, but I really don’t think we know enough to impose that kind of restriction. And having worked pretty much every major park in Brooklyn, Staten Island, and Manhattan extensively, I’ve found that all we can really do is follow the clues. I’d take some time and scan the i12 and v10 threads for more info as this has been discussed extensively. Yes. I have read through many. The problem with the other threads is that you often get incomplete solutions. A line or two that match up but not the complete walkthrough. The other problem is that the locations in NY are all over the place. It’s not that the ideas are bad, it’s just tough to focus on one location. One of the main reasons I like the way this thread is organized. ..phrabbot, do you have a v10 walkthrough (Any location-South Shore, Sunset, Prospect) you wouldn’t mind sharing?

In my findings so far, there’s only one location in Brooklyn at which all of my [brooklyn] theories have naturally ended that also makes sense thematically. I’ve personally gotten there two different ways using different interpretations of V10, 3 if I include my friend’s theory. As such, we’re currently in the “excavation” process, and would prefer to keep it to ourselves probably for a few more weeks. I have every intention of sharing these interpretations afterwords as I’m convinced that right or wrong “x” spot, one of them is the correct verse interpretation up to that spot.

I like that NYC is super active right now. I'm rooting for y'all.

Thanks GMan!... I have never walked Shore Park but let me reverse it. If a cask were buried in that park, there seem like very few landmarks Preiss could have used to help us locate the ‘v’ (agree?). A few streets with proper names (Oliver, Bay Ridge), only a handful of monuments, Fort Hamilton HS. Any others? Also if the cask is in Shore Park, I do feel that the walkthrough ‘ends’ with “him of hard word” analogous to walking ‘past his left shoulder’-you are at the cask site. The remaining part is ‘recovery instructions.’ And I thinks it’s cleverly constructed too. You really can’t get to the v (since as we have discussed, a v could mean several different things), unless you have solved every clue up until that point. With that said, are we at a stalemate? If we can’t figure out a logical interpretation of “him of hard word” as it relates to this area, is there a discussion point beyond that?

davinci4 wrote:: Thanks GMan!... I have never walked Shore Park but let me reverse it. If a cask were buried in that park, there seem like very few landmarks Preiss could have used to help us locate the ‘v’ (agree?). A few streets with proper names (Oliver, Bay Ridge), only a handful of monuments, Fort Hamilton HS. Any others? Also if the cask is in Shore Park, I do feel that the walkthrough ‘ends’ with “him of hard word” analogous to walking ‘past his left shoulder’-you are at the cask site. The remaining part is ‘recovery instructions.’ And I thinks it’s cleverly constructed too. You really can’t get to the v (since as we have discussed, a v could mean several different things), unless you have solved every clue up until that point. With that said, are we at a stalemate? If we can’t figure out a logical interpretation of “him of hard word” as it relates to this area, is there a discussion point beyond that? I guess it is all about how you look at it. If we think that we have the other lines in the verse correct, him of hard word would be nothing but more confirmation (which would still be great). I have a feeling that when we actually know who him of hard word is, it is going to be a slap in the face. I showed the verse to a Professor friend of mine, who is a great problem solver, as well as another intellectual. Both said the same thing which I found fascinating. They said it sounds like a biblical figure (we can all understand why).

I am just surprised we can’t seem to close the loop on this one. I look at the Hard Word clue like the “beating of the world.” It would have been very difficult to make the “Kenwood” connection without looking at the word “Kenwood” and working backwards. I am not a fan of reverse engineering but, in this case, I think it’s the approach one has to take, especially since we have narrowed down our search radius considerably. As I have mentioned before, I don’t think we are missing some mysterious plaque or inscription that will give us the answer. I think the answer is in front of us and we just haven’t seen it yet.

phrabbott wrote:: I know I believed the “major culture, major park required” theory for a while... but I really don’t think we know enough to impose that kind of restriction... I’ve found that all we can really do is follow the clues. For those who didn't grow up around here or not old enough to remember, areas of NYC in the 70's and early 80's were far from the gentrified places full of high income hipsters they are now. The city had almost gone bankrupt, Ford told us to "Drop Dead", everything including parks were dilapidated and crime and drugs were rampant. Many parks were places to be avoided especially at night. Many were dangerous to be in. Muggings were SOP, some parks were called "needle parks." Not a place you'd want to be at night or rooting around the ground or digging. Simply No-Go places. Remember at some level, Preiss is on the hook for searchers' safety. What would Bantam say and what would book sales do if the local news story was "Local teen stabbed to death in _____ park looking for buried treasure." Might sound far fetched now, but back then I assure you it was not. I'm not bashing anyone's park of choice. But take a look at some of the info below and ask yourself - "Though my neighborhood and park is a great place to be now - what was it probably like in 1982?" (Take a look at the many pics in this article) https://www.businessinsider.com/what-central-park-looked-like-in-the-1980s-2015-1 "Central Park was a dangerous place in the 1980s....The park was covered in garbage and graffiti, the meadows were barren dust-bowls, the playground equipment and benches were in decay, and the one-hundred-year-old infrastructure was crumbling. In fact, many thought it was lawless ruin— and avoided it at all costs. In efforts to make the park a safe place again, a Central Park Conservancy was formed. In 1980, the Conservancy began to enact a 'master plan' that would lead to the gradual reestablishment of the park..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prospect_Park_(Brooklyn) "...By the 1970s, Prospect Park was beset by crime; a 1974 report found that 44 percent of city residents would warn people to stay away from the park under any circumstances. [34] The mayoral administration of Ed Koch formed plans in 1980 to turn over the administration of the troubled Prospect Park Zoo to the Wildlife Conservation Society.[85] Over the next seven years, the city invested $17 million in cleaning up the park,[86] including $10 million in federal funds from a Community Development Block Grant.[87] Annual visitor numbers had nearly tripled to 5 million between 1980 and 1987..." Now SW Brooklyn parks were not immune to this. I'm sure they were far different and scuzzier than they are now. But contrast the statements above with those of this 1982 NY Times article about the neighborhood we're talking about. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q2c7-5jzvmTRaPAvGBwDTIRVvqzNgr-p/view?usp=sharing "...Views of the bridge and the Narrows are a selling point for apartments and houses, especially along Shore Road, known as the ''Gold Coast'' of Brooklyn … Crime is not much talked about partly because it is not a major problem. Sgt. John Granite of the 68th precinct said that burglaries and auto thefts were the area's most serious crimes, but that ''from 65th Street to 101st Street is one of the safest areas in Brooklyn.'' Looking through that lens and given the choices Preiss had at the time, a smaller park in a safe, affluent neighborhood might have sounded like a very good idea. Perhaps the decision was less about what those string of parks "have" than what they "didn't have"...

Thanks for that post Kang. We sometimes forget these casks were buried almost 40 years ago. It seems a lot has changed at these parks. Shore Park looking more promising......

Speaking of 40 yrs ago; Soviet Union could be a connection to Union Square. [ADDED] Also is that branch of the v or u?

Just doing some ground analysis. Question for the group. Could someone tell me (best guess) how far it is from the old v in Shore Park in front of Fort Hamilton HS to the flagpole in front of the school. Seems slightly absurd to cross Shore Road, but just considering different possibilities of v’s. ...total side note, I always liked the Roman numeral clock at the school as a marker and wondered if the students could be ‘natives’ Preiss was referring to. Never could make a good connection though.

davinci4 wrote:: I always liked the Roman numeral clock at the school as a marker and wondered if the students could be ‘natives’ Preiss was referring to. Never could make a good connection though. If "Him" is Charles Dickens, the students are almost certainly the natives in my opinion.

phrabbott wrote:: If "Him" is Charles Dickens, the students are almost certainly the natives in my opinion. How do we connect them (Charles Dickens and high school students)?

Students still speak of Charles Dickens. NYCNative always had the gripe that noone in NYC is speaking of Charles Dickens. That's true. But in school, they certainly are. "Although the sign nearby says [ft.] Hamilton [High school]", the students still speak of [read] Charles Dickens. Seems like a pretty reasonable logic puzzle. (if we're assuming these two phrases need to make sense together.)

phrabbott wrote:: Students still speak of Charles Dickens. NYCNative always had the gripe that noone in NYC is speaking of Charles Dickens. That's true. But in school, they certainly are. "Although the sign nearby says [ft.] Hamilton [High school]", the students still speak of [read] Charles Dickens. Seems like a pretty reasonable logic puzzle. (if we're assuming these two phrases need to make sense together.) I hate to say it, but this makes sense.

Hmmmm. Yes. When you put it that way. That actually does make a lot of sense. Interesting. ..take a look at White Rabbits solution. It has great picks of this area. ...very interesting. Wow. Three weeks of discussion. 276 replies. This could be our “ah ha” moment.

davinci4 wrote:: Hmmmm. Yes. When you put it that way. That actually does make a lot of sense. Interesting. ..take a look at White Rabbits solution. It has great picks of this area. ...very interesting. Wow. This could be our “ah ha” moment. DAVINCI! Don't make me search this forum for that post!! I am way to lazy for that today!

NYCNative wrote:: DAVINCI! Don't make me search this forum for that post!! I am way to lazy for that today! Haha...it’s in the Wiki. Scroll to bottom under “ Online Resources”

davinci4 wrote:: This could be our “ah ha” moment. Heh, Ya, you can ah ha right across the street to the V shaped path that got completely ripped apart in construction!

phrabbott wrote:: Heh, Ya, you can ah ha right across the street to the V shaped path that got completely ripped apart in construction! I remember this solve. Well, lets hope it was not there.

phrabbott wrote:: Heh, Ya, you can ah ha right across the street to the V shaped path that got completely ripped apart in construction! But the area in question was not disturbed (correct me if I am wrong). The v was redone, but the area east of the v and Shore Road where the trees are was left intact, no?

Was just thinking the same thing. haha. Race you? I think I have a geographical advantage. jk. NYCNative, has someone dug there before or did they just consider it? I remember seeing it quite a bit in my early forrays in this hunt and I assumed everyone was in this area. My assumption would be that you line up with the clock or something. Maybe even one of those fence designs. Dare we go just to cross it off the list? Classic phrabbott systematic probe?

Honestly. I am way too far away but would so happy is someone found this. ..the clock tower, the “83 or 85 st.” are kind of all making sense now.

davinci4 wrote:: Honestly. I am way too far away but would so happy is someone found this. ..the clock tower, the “83 or 85 st.” are kind of all making sense now. So what was that part of the park named in 1980?

Hardword Johnson III Park

phrabbott wrote:: Hardword Johnson III Park LMAO That's F ^

..nice one.

davinci4 wrote:: :)..nice one. I seriously can not find any information on that field. We know it is Frank Schnurr ballpark now. I have no idea when that name was placed there. What was it before!?

Not sure. ...Kang, can you help us with this one?

davinci4 wrote:: Not sure. ...Kang, can you help us with this one? Umm, you guys are asking if I can help you with your Hardword Johnsons? Pass. Sounds like a setup. What's next, a round of "Moron says, what??"

Kang wrote:: Umm, you guys are asking if I can help you with your Hardword Johnsons? Pass. Sounds like a setup. What's next, a round of "Moron says, what??" LMAO Hardword JOhnson! No that was a joke. We where trying to find what the baseball field in front of the High school was named before its current name, which is Frank Schnurr ballfields.

Not as bad as Muffin grounds hxxp://www.covehurst.net/ddyte/brooklyn/otherparks.html

...once part of Crescent Athletic club. Great info Choice. Thank you! ....One other observation. It’s a vague panel and probably mentioned already but our gray rectangle has a very similar appearance to the front ground of Fort Hamilton HS as well. Dimensions aren’t exact, but I could see how JJP possibly drew influence of such a design if a photograph was taken across the street next to the “v.”

davinci4 wrote:: ...once part of Crescent Athletic club. Great info Choice. Thank you! ....One other observation. It’s a vague panel and probably mentioned already but our gray rectangle has a very similar appearance to the front ground of Fort Hamilton HS as well. Dimensions aren’t exact, but I could see how JJP possibly drew influence of such a design if a photograph was taken across the street next to the “v.” Still need to find when the parks name changed and what it was before. Lets hope it is a good one...if we can find that info anywhere. Good work Davinci!!

Based on the historic aerials, it looks like there was paved surface with ?shuffleboard courts in the area that is now a baseball field. Same image in 1980, 1987. 1994 is where baseball field shows up. ... NYC, phrabbot. I know the location in front of the HS has been mentioned in past but I am not aware anyone has ever given it serious consideration (other than White Rabbit) or ever explored it in detail. Much of the on ground efforts seemingly have focused in Prospect, Battery and Central Park.

davinci4 wrote:: Based on the historic aerials, it looks like there was paved surface with ?shuffleboard courts in the area that is now a baseball field. Same image in 1980, 1987. 1994 is where baseball field shows up. ... NYC, phrabbot. I know the location in front of the HS has been mentioned in past but I am not aware anyone has ever given it serious consideration (other than White Rabbit) or ever explored it in detail. Much of the on ground efforts seemingly have focused in Prospect, Battery and Central Park. Well the theory of the spot being in front of the H.S is an old one. To think that someone didn't at least try to dig or probe there is hard to believe. Doesn't mean anything since nobody has a casque or has published anything else involving that small area. I still have not been able to find much information about the ballfields. We know it is now named after a little league coach and thanks to Davinci, we know what it was before it was a ballfield. Perhaps it had no name to it. But I will keep digging in. Perhaps more info can be had from an actual trip to the park and asking one of the "natives". You are a superstar Davinci! May the Dickens be with you , my friend.

NYCNative wrote:: Well the theory of the spot being in front of the H.S is an old one. To think that someone didn't at least try to dig or probe there is hard to believe. Doesn't mean anything since nobody has a casque or has published anything else involving that small area. I still have not been able to find much information about the ballfields. We know it is now named after a little league coach and thanks to Davinci, we know what it was before it was a ballfield. Perhaps it had no name to it. But I will keep digging in. Perhaps more info can be had from an actual trip to the park and asking one of the "natives". You are a superstar Davinci! May the Dickens be with you , my friend. People tried to claim that BP went to Ft. Hamilton HS. If I am correct, he attended Midwood HS adjacent to Brooklyn College. I would be inclined to search that area for potential clues.

gManTexas wrote:: People tried to claim that BP went to Ft. Hamilton HS. If I am correct, he attended Midwood HS adjacent to Brooklyn College. I would be inclined to search that area for potential clues. Yes. I remember that people have claimed that BP went to Hamilton but that is not why we are in that area at all. Midwood has not produced anything worth pursuing, unless I missed several things about that area that can fit as well as it does in Bay Ridge. i have not seen or read anything that suggests that he buried it near his H.S., other then the false rumor and the theory that he is the rhapsodic man (which we know now can not be true).

NYCNative wrote:: Yes. I remember that people have claimed that BP went to Hamilton but that is not why we are in that area at all. Midwood has not produced anything worth pursuing, unless I missed several things about that area that can fit as well as it does in Bay Ridge. i have not seen or read anything that suggests that he buried it near his H.S., other then the false rumor and the theory that he is the rhapsodic man (which we know now can not be true). I'm not suggesting that it is buried near Midwood. Just that if that was his stomping grounds, there may be some nuanced clues around there.

There is a Byron Preiss on the alumni list in the 1968. Who knows if this is THE Byron Preiss. List is sorted by last name: hxxp://midwoodhighschool.net/brooklyn-n ... ist-p.html Similar list for Ft. Hamilton! 68. Maybe he went to both! hxxp://forthamiltonhighschool.net/alumni-list-p.html https://www.allhighschools.com/school/f ... ool/741010

NYCNative wrote:: Well the theory of the spot being in front of the H.S is an old one. To think that someone didn't at least try to dig or probe there is hard to believe. Doesn't mean anything since nobody has a casque or has published anything else involving that small area. I still have not been able to find much information about the ballfields. We know it is now named after a little league coach and thanks to Davinci, we know what it was before it was a ballfield. Perhaps it had no name to it. But I will keep digging in. Perhaps more info can be had from an actual trip to the park and asking one of the "natives". You are a superstar Davinci! May the Dickens be with you , my friend. Thank you! ...sorry. Just getting caught up now about where Preiss went to HS conversation. He went to Midwood, there is a scanned copy of his yearbook online (one of the other threads has a link, let me see if I can find it). I am actually glad this was brought up. I was looking into past threads about Fort Hamilton HS. One major reason they were sidetracked was regarding the false information that he attended it. I mention it because I don’t want the group going going down this rabbit hole again. Once it was mentioned that he attended there, and then proven he didn’t, people seemed to lose focus and that sight never seemed to get full consideration. We have a complete solve now to the verses and some very promising image confirmers that support it. By far the strongest NY solution I have read to date. This solution also has no foundation in where he attended high school. It’s completely built from careful consideration of each line. NYC. I will do some more research regarding that part of the park in front of Fort Hamilton HS. I am also reading up on the renovation project as well, but preliminary stuff looks promising. I don’t think that area 22 steps east of the v was excavated, rather touched up a little (replanted, weeds removed). It looks like it was largely undisturbed.

Here it is. Courtesy of Harley Quinn hxxp://imgur.com/gallery/7YU1ERn

davinci4 wrote:: I was looking into past threads about Fort Hamilton HS. One major reason they were sidetracked was regarding the false information that he attended it. I mention it because I don’t want the group going down this rabbit hole again. Yes, given what his classmate Ben Asen said on the podcast last year and the yearbook photo you mention, it seems pretty clear that Byron went to Midwood High school. For what it's worth I chased that rabbit last year - I contacted the Brooklyn Library and someone kindly went through their copies of "The Tower" (Fort Hamilton HS yearbook) for 1967-70 and reported back to me that she could not find a Bryon Preiss in any of those. And not to muddy the waters, but another thing I found last year, since davinci brings up the subject (well done): The current site of Fort Hamilton High School and it's athletic fields used to be the site of the Crescent Athletic Club - and it went all the way down to the water - including what is now the ballfield davinci is interested in. Some of the members there are the source of some of the mansions that still exist near there. https://www.brownstoner.com/history/past-and-present-the-crescent-athletic-club-bay-ridge/ There seems to be quite a few crescents and arches piling up in this puzzle, huh? Anyone sense a theme?

davinci4 wrote:: Here it is. Courtesy of Harley Quinn hxxp://imgur.com/gallery/7YU1ERn Just for fun.... According to his yearbook credits - and if the info that he graduated in 1968 is accurate - he should be in these somewhere. They were/are kind of a big deal at Midwood High School. 1,000 Secret 'nerd points' if you can pick out Byron's voice.... Midwood High School “Senior Sing” Side A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dtBEQyi-hQ Midwood High School “Senior Sing” Side B https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_doiJjQaEY

Kang. That is a phenomenal post!

Kang wrote:: Just for fun.... According to his yearbook credits - and if the info that he graduated in 1968 is accurate - he should be in these somewhere. They were/are kind of a big deal at Midwood High School. 1,000 Secret 'nerd points' if you can pick out Byron's voice.... Midwood High School “Senior Sing” Side A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dtBEQyi-hQ Midwood High School “Senior Sing” Side B https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_doiJjQaEY I find it interesting that BP's DOB is listed as April 11, 1953, which makes him a late baby as far as the school year goes. Typically you would be admitted into Kindergarten at 4 years old if you were born before December 31. If this is accurate, then a 1968 graduation date would put him at just over 15 years old. Even 1969 would be 16 years old. His graduation from U of Penn in 1972 would support a '68 or '69 HS grad date. Either way, obviously a prodigy, unless his DOB is off. Now, back to the matter at hand, where is the casque NY searchers?

Hi GMan. I am going to try and summarize for the group (and this really has been a true group effort). Everyone else feel free to add/amend/edit. Verse: In the shadow Of the grey giant (at border of Manhattan) Find the arm that (pick a parkway) Extends over the slender path (278/Belt/BQE-extend over narrows) In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound (ferries in NY Bay or bike path along Belt I.e. stay by the shore) Cars abound (South Shore Park, bounded by Belt and Shore Road) Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native (Fort Hamilton HS Sign) The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. (Students at Fort Hamilton HS still read Charles Dickens) Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more (take 22 steps east) From the middle of one branch Of the v (from v in front of HS) Look down And see simple roots (grass) In rhapsodic man's soil (general Brooklyn reference-Gershwin) Or gaze north Toward the isle of B. (SOL, Bedloe’s Island) Image confirmers: -red dot panel: “83 (or 5) St.”, location of Fort Hamilton HS -edge of robe = map outline, north end of Shore Road -Roman numeral clock = clock in front of Fort Hamilton HS, visible at cask site, also lines up with middle of v as you walk east 22 steps -Surf: Shore Park or Shore Road -gray panel= outline of ground in front of HS, visible at cask site -onion domes= St Basil’s cathedral (General Russian theme)

davinci4 wrote:: Hi GMan. I am going to try and summarize for the group (and this really has been a true group effort). Everyone else feel free to add/amend/edit. Verse: In the shadow Of the grey giant (at border of Manhattan) Find the arm that (pick a parkway) Extends over the slender path (278/Belt/BQE-extend over narrows) In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound (ferries in NY Bay or bike path along Belt I.e. stay by the shore) Cars abound (South Shore Park, bounded by Belt and Shore Road) Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native (Fort Hamilton HS Sign) The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. (Students at Fort Hamilton HS still read Charles Dickens) Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more (take 22 steps east) From the middle of one branch Of the v (from v in front of HS) Look down And see simple roots (grass) In rhapsodic man's soil (general Brooklyn reference-Gershwin) Or gaze north Toward the isle of B. (SOL, Bedloe’s Island) Image confirmers: -red dot panel: “83 (or 5) St.”, location of Fort Hamilton HS -edge of robe = map outline, north end of Shore Road -Roman numeral clock = clock in front of Fort Hamilton HS, visible at cask site, also lines up with middle of v as you walk east 22 steps -Surf: Shore Park or Shore Road -gray panel= outline of ground in front of HS, visible at cask site -onion domes= St Basil’s cathedral (General Russian theme) Nice summary for those playing along at home. Let's analyze the v. If the v is a path or walkway and reasonably well defined, meaning there is a start and end (I have to look at a map, preferably old one), then the instructions would tell us to find the midpoint of one leg and take 22 steps from there, no? Is there anything on the ground that would be a natural stopping point at 22 steps?

Yes. We have the old aerial photos in this thread. The middle of the v matches up almost perfectly with the clock tower at the high school. Regarding walking east from the v, check out White Rabbits aerial photos (and solution). I use the length of the cars in the photo as a rough estimate of about 15 feet. So figure 3 car lengths if you walk 22 steps east. Puts you right at the east edge of the park where there is the fence that lines Shore Road....

gManTexas wrote:: Either way, obviously a prodigy, unless his DOB is off. Hey gMan! Interesting catch, he must have graduated at 15. I don't think his DOB is off, it's on his headstone: https://images.findagrave.com/photos/20 ... 159876.jpg ***Now, back to the matter at hand***

davinci4 wrote:: Yes. We have the old aerial photos in this thread. The middle of the v matches up almost perfectly with the clock tower at the high school. Regarding walking east from the v, check out White Rabbits aerial photos (and solution). I use the length of the cars in the photo as a rough estimate of about 15 feet. So figure 3 car lengths if you walk 22 steps east. Puts you right at the east edge of the park where there is the fence that lines Shore Road.... Looking at street view, dated 2018, there appears to be old growth trees and the fence looks old. Although in Google Earth it looks like the area was torn up a couple of times, especially in 2012. Maybe that part was not renovated. I would think you would want to line up with the rectangle with the flagpole and clock in front of the school, but across the street in the park area. The path follows the fence line and measured in GE is roughly 52 feet, which is just about 22 paces. I'm not convinced, but it looks like you could dig there without any problems. Just eyeballing, it would be a small area.

davinci4 wrote:: Look down And see simple roots (grass) In rhapsodic man's soil (general Brooklyn reference-Gershwin) I never took this as literally looking down at grass. Rather, I took "simple roots" to mean something akin to early beginnings , such as Preiss's early life in Brooklyn [rhapsodic man's soil].

I'm interested in what is driving some of these recent (resurrected) theories that seem to be centered around the Belt Parkway area. Is it the SOL? Something else? Honestly, while I don't necessarily emphatically believe the casques have to be in major parks, this area seems to be devoid of anything like a Cultural Garden, Grant Park, Lake Park, etc. Discuss.

Hi GMan. We actually discussed this recently. Kang made some very interesting points and posted some great pics of the major parks (Prospect, Central) in NY in the early 80s. Needless to say, they were not in the shape they are now. Go back a few pages in this thread for full discussion. Curious to hear your thoughts. I had same concern but Kang’s post provided great perspective.

gManTexas wrote:: I'm interested in what is driving some of these recent (resurrected) theories that seem to be centered around the Belt Parkway area. Is it the SOL? Something else? Honestly, while I don't necessarily emphatically believe the casques have to be in major parks, this area seems to be devoid of anything like a Cultural Garden, Grant Park, Lake Park, etc. Discuss. Personally, I don't think they're all in major parks. I think some are buried in more out-of-the-way places, especially the NY one. I'm of the mind to think that Preiss realized how crazy it might be to be digging in a NYC park, even though the situation was majorly different in the seventies and early eighties (there's another thread about the parks during that time period). Everything I see points to the area this thread is looking into. Maybe this is all wrong, but it's got a good feel to it, even though that means nothing.

davinci4 wrote:: Hi GMan. We actually discussed this recently. Kang made some very interesting points and posted some great pics of the major parks (Prospect, Central) in NY in the early 80s. Needless to say, they were not in the shape they are now. Go back a few pages in this thread for full discussion. Curious to hear your thoughts. I had same concern but Kang’s post provided great perspective. I made that (safety) argument about Central Park previously, and not to mention its immense size, which is the same way I feel about Golden Gate Park. Too big to have people searching. However, at the time in the early 80s, it was a fact of life that we dealt with that crime was rampant and you had to be on guard. I do not totally buy into the argument that Bantam would be on the hook if someone got injured or killed. Everything is so litigious these days and we cannot apply today's standards to back then. Having said this, if it turns out that the casque is in front of Ft. Hamilton HS, so be it. Really disappointing location for what should be a crown jewel of puzzles in his hometown, but a reasonably viable location. Personally, the "solve" feels empty. I think it is way more clever.

gManTexas wrote:: I'm interested in what is driving some of these recent (resurrected) theories that seem to be centered around the Belt Parkway area. Is it the SOL? Something else? Honestly, while I don't necessarily emphatically believe the casques have to be in major parks, this area seems to be devoid of anything like a Cultural Garden, Grant Park, Lake Park, etc. Discuss. Hey gman. For recent discussion on 'major park' 'museum/monument' vs this area, there are some posts here on page 18 viewtopic.php?f=32&t=8015&start=255 As for ticking boxes on why the interest in this area - just from a verse perspective and even being somewhat conservative in interpretation there is the possibility of: SOL - if Isle of B is Bedloe and you take the 'look north' on the literal side, SW Brooklyn is the only area one can do that and be on land. Shadow of the grey giant - possibilities include Brooklyn being in Manhattan's metaphorical shadow. Or the Verrazzano. Whirring - Japanese hint strongly hints at bicycle. Promenade bicycle path is old and well known. And those were much fewer 40 years ago. Slender path - Narrows. Indies Native - plethora of Hamilton stuff. Rhapsodic soil / Gershwin - general Brooklyn clue. To me at least that seems enough to give it a run through and see what shakes out. At the very least. Your thoughts?

gManTexas wrote:: I'm interested in what is driving some of these recent (resurrected) theories that seem to be centered around the Belt Parkway area. Is it the SOL? Something else? Honestly, while I don't necessarily emphatically believe the casques have to be in major parks, this area seems to be devoid of anything like a Cultural Garden, Grant Park, Lake Park, etc. I wouldn’t call them resurrected. They’re more like festering theories. I don’t trust that anyone systematically probes to the point that a theory is ruled out. Most get excited at any rock strike and dig thus wasting time and preventing a thorough inspection of any area. I believe it’s worth probing just based on the indies/hard word viability at the school. I never said it’s a good idea and I too will be disappointed, but at this point, I don’t trust this hunt to be anything amazing. I think it’s easier and less time consuming to probe than to theoretically discuss it.

Kang wrote:: Hey gman. For recent discussion on 'major park' 'museum/monument' vs this area, there are some posts here on page 18 viewtopic.php?f=32&t=8015&start=255 As for ticking boxes on why the interest in this area - just from a verse perspective and even being somewhat conservative in interpretation there is the possibility of: SOL - if Isle of B is Bedloe and you take the 'look north' on the literal side, SW Brooklyn is the only area one can do that and be on land. Shadow of the grey giant - possibilities include Brooklyn being in Manhattan's metaphorical shadow. Or the Verrazzano. Whirring - Japanese hint strongly hints at bicycle. Promenade bicycle path is old and well known. And those were much fewer 40 years ago. Slender path - Narrows. Indies Native - plethora of Hamilton stuff. Rhapsodic soil / Gershwin - general Brooklyn clue. To me at least that seems enough to give it a run through and see what shakes out. At the very least. Your thoughts? For sure it should be investigated, although being the prominent theory on the Wiki site would lead me to believe that it has been probed to death like the CG (or 2Cs) structure in Boston. I don't disagree that it has merits, just that BP had 20 something years of experience in that region and I would like to think that a more culturally rich location would have been his choice. I say go document it, photos, videos, etc. Then poke a bunch or holes, maybe even commit a shovel to the ground and see what happens.

phrabbott wrote:: I wouldn’t call them resurrected. They’re more like festering theories. I don’t trust that anyone systematically probes to the point that a theory is ruled out. Most get excited at any rock strike and dig thus wasting time and preventing a thorough inspection of any area. I believe it’s worth probing just based on the indies/hard word viability at the school. I never said it’s a good idea and I too will be disappointed, but at this point, I don’t trust this hunt to be anything amazing. I think it’s easier and less time consuming to probe than to theoretically discuss it. I say dig. If the spot is supposed to line up with the clock, flagpole and rectangle, there should be a very small area or maybe 3-4 feet square to investigate.

The clock must be a more significant part of the puzzle than just a typical clock tower that visually is not a match. Woman's eyes looking at 9 o'clock direction. The verse line 'Of the v'... Is that really a v? ט or tet is the 9th letter in Hebrew alphabet and 9 on Hebrew clocks.

I like that this has been a group effort, and I had advocated at one time to "mind-hive" a puzzle a month. Maybe we can all do this with the NYC puzzle. Everyone throw their brains and wisdom into solving this one. Let the boots on the ground do their thing, since we seem to have some eager explorers over there.

gManTexas wrote:: I like that this has been a group effort, and I had advocated at one time to "mind-hive" a puzzle a month. Maybe we can all do this with the NYC puzzle. Everyone throw their brains and wisdom into solving this one. Let the boots on the ground do their thing, since we seem to have some eager explorers over there. Always happy to have your input Gman!

When researching Gershwin I keep ending up in the Morningside Heights area....thoughts?

MERLIN wrote:: When researching Gershwin I keep ending up in the Morningside Heights area....thoughts? What would be the "isle of B"? Broadway perhaps?

MERLIN wrote:: When researching Gershwin I keep ending up in the Morningside Heights area....thoughts? A few of us ended up there and after a lot of research, there is not much there to make a strong and relevant solve. For example, what would be the Isle of B in that area? The groups thought on the Gershwin reference in the verse is that it takes you to his roots in Brooklyn. I hated this reference because I was expecting to actually be in an area that has something more precise about Gershwin, other then the borough he started his life in. I know a few of us went up and down the coast of the Hudson looking for something to connect to the verse or the image. We all failed at doing so in our own independent investigations. There are promising leads there, such as the supposed sight where Peter Minuit bought the island of Manhattan. there are little things here and there that can make sense but falls short of having all the elements we need for a possible solve.

gManTexas wrote:: What would be the "isle of B"? Broadway perhaps? I remember we once considered Broadway as a possibility. I think the logic was that Isle could mean aisle but that seems like a stretch. That would be way to deliberate to trick people with a totally different word. We do know for a fact that the word Isle was used in the book and it was used to mean Island.

I am still not in the Charles Dickens camp. If we never found or had the Japanese edition, how would anyone reasonably make the leap to Dickens? I am not dismissing him altogether, but it would seem to me that there should be some solid evidence to relate Dickens to the location and puzzle.

phrabbott wrote:: Students still speak of Charles Dickens. NYCNative always had the gripe that noone in NYC is speaking of Charles Dickens. That's true. But in school, they certainly are. "Although the sign nearby says [ft.] Hamilton [High school]", the students still speak of [read] Charles Dickens. Seems like a pretty reasonable logic puzzle. (if we're assuming these two phrases need to make sense together.) GMan. This actually makes a lot of sense in my opinion. Also, people on this board proposed the Dickens/Hard Times connection long before the Japanese translation.

davinci4 wrote:: GMan. This actually makes a lot of sense in my opinion. Also, people on this board proposed the Dickens/Hard Times connection long before the Japanese translation. While I get it and Dickens was required reading in school, it is seemingly random to reference an English writer. I realize that Dickens did visit America a couple of times and even spent some time in NYC, but one would think the reference in the Verse would point to someone local or that possibly had a bigger impact on the area. In Verse 7, Twain is specifically called out, and had actually lived and worked in SF. In Verse 10, we have a cryptic clue that could mean anyone IMO. EDIT: If we accept that Ft. Hamilton HS is the focal point, and the students are the natives; then the person referenced by "him of hard word" becomes somewhat moot. It could mean any writer or famous figure. Maybe this is why the clue is so intentionally vague.

MERLIN wrote:: When researching Gershwin I keep ending up in the Morningside Heights area....thoughts? I still really like Riverside Park/Morningside. However, it is on the backburner currently. Why I like it? It's rife with verse/image matches. Tons of grey giants you can start from (grant's tomb, soldier's and sailors, Riverside Church, St John the Divine), Hamilton fountain with dancing lion image match (if you think Byron could be just referencing the words on the sign and not the actual 'who') , Gershwin's most recognized residence, the list goes on. However, it's on the backburner for two reasons: A. 74 is most recognizable number in the image. If this is the Eastern most longitude, all of Manhattan's northern parks are cut off. This really only leaves Battery as a viable Manhattan option. As we're looking up there, we could argue that 74 could be the westernmost longitude, but then the SoL and bay isn't included... nice segue to my next point: B. If this area ends up being the final spot, then all of the image's bay references (SoL, Ellis Island Ferry Bird head, Seabird body, wave crashing, possible ellis island dock) don't contribute to the puzzle. I'd like to think that's not the case.

phrabbott wrote:: 74 is most recognizable number in the image. If this is the Eastern most longitude, all of Manhattan's northern parks are cut off. This really only leaves Battery as a viable Manhattan option. As we're looking up there, we could argue that 74 could be the westernmost longitude, but then the SoL and bay isn't included... If this area ends up being the final spot, then all of the image's bay references (SoL, Ellis Island Ferry Bird head, Seabird body, wave crashing, possible ellis island dock) don't contribute to the puzzle. I'd like to think that's not the case. That is some logical thinking right there - A problem well stated is half solved, huh? Granted there is disagreement about map coordinates in this puzzle - but not the 74. One might certainly not subscribe to the box theory - or not for this puzzle. However, if one believes in the - map coordinates boxes in the area of interest theory - there's no getting around this point. Either 74 is the eastern edge of the box or the western edge. If it's the western edge, the area of interest is Queens, all but SW Brooklyn and all but the southern tip of Manhattan. But if that's the case, why are all the clues phrabbott points to outside of that? Or it's the eastern edge and the area of interest is Staten Island, SW Brooklyn and just the southern tip of Manhattan.

Nobody hated the Dickens idea more then I. But I will tell you how I got to my conclusion with that line. I was originally just looking to find something about the 3 vols. part. I really found it frustrating that even the abbreviation, VOLS., was not just easily assumed to be Volumes. There was always a bit of a doubt that it could mean something other then that. I can not remember how I got into the Rabbit hole but I somehow landed on 3 volume novels, a.k.a triple deckers. It felt very right and if correct, it is less vague then it seems. We are not looking for anything that may have a 3 volume set, we are looking for a novelist who wrote something famous in this form of writing. I already saw this road going to DICKENS, but I pushed against it. I researched Walter Scott and others just to not give consideration to DICKENS! More and more research and I could not match anyone to "him of hard word in 3 volumes". So fine! I do my research on Dickens and the fact that he wrote Hard times in the publication Household words, in comparison to other possibilities, makes him the obvious choice. So the line would go: Although the sign nearby says Hamilton, the natives still speak of Dickens. My argument was, "who the F still speaks of Dickens in Brooklyn?! There was a church he spoke in located in Brooklyn Heights but that is way out of our area of interests and there is nothing else there. Nothing else of relevance about his physical presence and influence in Brooklyn. Then this poo poo head dude tells me, "it is the high school students! The sign is the Hamilton H.S sign and Dickens is still being read and probably acted in the high school. This also gave me some clarification on why the word although. Although it says Hamilton( although meaning, Even though Hamilton's name is on the sign, he is not the topic of discussion there), Dickens is studied there. I don't know about you guys but this is as solid as it gets. Very, VEry VEry Happy!

This is the area in full construction/renovation status. It looks as if the major part of this construction is that deep hole at the top of the V. Not sure what that is. I am trying to find out what the reason for the construction is but it doesn't seen that they broke much ground, except for that one spot. At least I hope not.

NYCNative wrote:: This is the area in full construction/renovation status. It looks as if the major part of this construction is that deep hole at the top of the V. Not sure what that is. I am trying to find out what the reason for the construction is but it doesn't seen that they broke much ground, except for that one spot. At least I hope not. Are one of you going to head over there? Maybe they let you dig, lol.

NYCNative wrote:: This is the area in full construction/renovation status. It looks as if the major part of this construction is that deep hole at the top of the V. Not sure what that is. I am trying to find out what the reason for the construction is but it doesn't seen that they broke much ground, except for that one spot. At least I hope not. NYC. When was that photo taken? Isn’t there a fire hydrant where that hole is/was?

gManTexas wrote:: Are one of you going to head over there? Maybe they let you dig, lol. I will be there no later then Tuesday afternoon just to do a recon. It seems all the did was a bit of landscaping and that massive hole. This also all happened right after Hurricane Sandy, from the looks of it. Weird thing is the rest of the area looks fine, right after the storm, but this little portion. So probably not damage from the storm. There should be little problem if we have to probe or dig there.

davinci4 wrote:: NYC. When was that photo taken? Isn’t there a fire hydrant where that hole is/was? I believe this was in 2014. NO fire hydrant. My guess is that it is a storm pipe. I am sure I will know when I get there. It isn't a big deal since this is not where I imagine the casque would be. Be a damn shame if it was though.

gManTexas wrote:: Are one of you going to head over there? Maybe they let you dig, lol. As of now, this area is completely resodded and park-like again. This picture must be around 2012 when it was completely barricaded.

Agreed. You are only looking at a very small part of the park (east side) near the fence at Shore Road, which by the looks of it, was relatively undisturbed. NYC. If you do decide to go, I will be curious to hear your thoughts. Not only about the logistics, 22 east steps, v etc. but also your general feeling. You have studied this puzzle a long time. Will be curious what your instincts tell you as you get to the middle of the v and look up at the clock tower. Take the 22 steps (or more) to the fence. Does it all line up? Without the trees, is SOL visible in the distance? Can you see (“hear”) the bikers on the promenade? How is the view of the Verrazano? What is the terrain like there? Maybe you will uncover additional clues we can’t see without being there. Very exciting!

davinci4 wrote:: Agreed. You are only looking at a very small part of the park (east side) near the fence at Shore Road, which by the looks of it, was relatively undisturbed. NYC. If you do decide to go, I will be curious to hear your thoughts. Not only about the logistics, 22 east steps, v etc. but also your general feeling. You have studied this puzzle a long time. Will be curious what your instincts tell you as you get to the middle of the v and look up at the clock tower. Take the 22 steps (or more) to the fence. Does it all line up? Without the trees, is SOL visible in the distance? Can you see (“hear”) the bikers on the promenade? How is the view of the Verrazano? What is the terrain like there? Maybe you will uncover additional clues we can’t see without being there. Very exciting! For sure! I will take in the sights. I will take some pictures and post them on the discord first. If anything pops out to us, then I will post them here. I am very excited as well!

There is a chapter about dickens travels to the US in ABROAD IN AMERICA

NYCNative wrote:: This is the area in full construction/renovation status. It looks as if the major part of this construction is that deep hole at the top of the V. Not sure what that is. I am trying to find out what the reason for the construction is but it doesn't seen that they broke much ground, except for that one spot. At least I hope not. NYC. Found the info on the construction in front of Fort Hamilton HS in 2012. It was called "The Siphon Project," part of building a new water tunnel from Brooklyn to Staten Island to update old infrastructure as well as to make the new one deeper, so that larger boats can now pass into New York harbor. https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/pres ... 42pr.shtml

Doghousereiley wrote:: There is a chapter about dickens travels to the US in ABROAD IN AMERICA This is interesting. Seems to me that entire book is worth a read.

davinci4 wrote:: NYC. Found the info on the construction in front of Fort Hamilton HS in 2012. It was called "The Siphon Project," part of building a new water tunnel from Brooklyn to Staten Island to update old infrastructure as well as to make the new one deeper, so that larger boats can now pass into New York harbor. https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/pres ... 42pr.shtml This is awesome!! Great find D! I won't have time today to go to the site, so for sure tomorrow. Although now I am just tempted to go with the shovel and probe and go for it! We would be surprised to find out that nobody has gone to the spot before to probe or dig. If they did, no posts have been made about it. Doesn't mean that it didn't happen and also doesn't matter at this point. Just using google maps, I notice that the 22 steps from the V puts you under some trees, on the lawn of that portion of the ballfields. While standing there, if you look directly across the street, you are right in front of the High school entrance. I thought this overhead seemed compelling. Do you think the shape of the lawn in front of the school has anything to do with this?

NYCNative wrote:: Just using google maps, I notice that the 22 steps from the V puts you under some trees, on the lawn of that portion of the ballfields. While standing there, if you look directly across the street, you are right in front of the High school entrance. I thought this overhead seemed compelling. Do you think the shape of the lawn in front of the school has anything to do with this? That's why I said, you have a natural obstruction at about 22 steps of the fence. Line yourself up with the rectangle, flagpole and clock. Look down, stick shovel in the ground.

NYCNative wrote:: This is awesome!! Great find D! I won't have time today to go to the site, so for sure tomorrow. Although now I am just tempted to go with the shovel and probe and go for it! We would be surprised to find out that nobody has gone to the spot before to probe or dig. If they did, no posts have been made about it. Doesn't mean that it didn't happen and also doesn't matter at this point. Just using google maps, I notice that the 22 steps from the V puts you under some trees, on the lawn of that portion of the ballfields. While standing there, if you look directly across the street, you are right in front of the High school entrance. I thought this overhead seemed compelling. Do you think the shape of the lawn in front of the school has anything to do with this? That lawn in front of the school kind of matches the gray rectangle panel we have been pondering over..even more interesting when you look at it from that angle- A patch of grass between the trees and the fence about 50 feet from middle of the v, lining up with the clock tower!

Guys, We need more information about other possible probes or digs on the site since we are not the first ones to arrive at this spot for a solve. If anyone can point us in the right direction or has info on this site and what has been done or not done it would help a lot.

NYCNative wrote:: Guys, We need more information about other possible probes or digs on the site since we are not the first ones to arrive at this spot for a solve. If anyone can point us in the right direction or has info on this site and what has been done or not done it would help a lot. Why do you need that info? Just go dig. Even if someone previously dug there and was off by 6 inches, no cigar.

gManTexas wrote:: Why do you need that info? Just go dig. Even if someone previously dug there and was off by 6 inches, no cigar. When your right your right. I AM ON IT!!

Because of the similarities between image 1 and 12; if the cask turns out to be in front of the high school then the odds of San Francisco cask being in front of the Galileo High would be higher. One next to baseball field, the other football field.

Choice wrote:: Because of the similarities between image 1 and 12; if the cask turns out to be in front of the high school then the odds of San Francisco cask being in front of the Galileo High would be higher. One next to baseball field, the other football field. Choice. If this cask winds up being there, you deserve credit for the “83 (or 5)” in the red dot panel. Still one of my favorite image confirmers.

Thanks for your civility and encouragement. Hard to come by on this thread.

So where is 22 steps to the EAST of "v"? middle of street?

I guess we’ll find out on Saturday. I still feel weird about “22” steps being the accepted nomenclature. I know we know what we mean, but it could still cloud observation if it’s not actually 22 steps we’re looking for. I also have been a staunch believer that taking steps (or more) from the V puts you in a limbo. Taking steps to the v from where you then look down and north. That’s a definitive end point.

While I’m still not convinced that the consensus here has narrowed down a spot that is reasonably and logically possible to locate a 5” square, multiple feet below ground, I hope you gain some valuable data going through the process. Best of luck on the digging expedition.

phrabbott wrote:: I also have been a staunch believer that taking steps (or more) from the V puts you in a limbo. The whole notion of walking 60ft, or a bit further as an instruction in a treasure hunt is completely absurd. People have rationalized it for whatever reasons over the years but it just doesn't cut it.

I have to respectful disagree. i think we have spent so much time over thinking this and questioning so many aspects of it that the number of possibilities to a solve makes us unsure, even when we have seemingly solved key points in the verse, which led us to the same spot that other have theorized in the past but for different reasons. We started this thread just with the assumption that we should be in this neighborhood because of what we believed to be South of Bedloe. From there we got all the way to this point of in front of the high school. Not because of a rumor that BP went to that high school (which he did not) but because two separate lines of the verse brought us right there. Once there, the fact the the middle of the V shaped path lines up with the front of the school, its rectangle lawn, and the clock tower, all while still seeing a view of Bedloe in the distance. We got here organically from trying to decipher the verse, which is very hard to do in any spot. The fact that it matches up and the verse makes sense (not to mention the image clues that a few of us know as well and the Japanese hints) is for me, a dead give away that it is there. I don't understand what else is needed but a good probe and dig. Perhaps we are not impressed on what the solve can potentially be since we have other expectation that need to be met, just like Chicago and Cleveland. I for one am all in on this, for the record. I have no reservations. I am just trying to be really patient in going to get it. Other then a giant neon LED sign saying, "dig here", I don't know what else is needed. Please enlighten me if I am wrong about something here. This is solid, backed up with confirmation from the image and verse and excerpts from the book. What else do you need out of a solve?

NYCNative wrote:: a bunch of stuff NYCNative wrote:: What else do you need out of a solve? You should absolutely probe, dig, and whatever else you feel will forward your progress. However, you should also look for an alternative interpretation for Take twice as many east steps as the hour and Or more . Precision

IF you actually are in the correct area, the work is just beginning. The Chicago group was in the correct area regardless of the completeness of their solve. They dug for months. Even when they got some help from Preiss, they still never dug directly on top of the casque. It was found on the edge/bank of the huge hole they had dug. The Cleveland guys were also in the correct area, but when they deciphered the verse literally and logically, there was no casque. It was found seemingly by chance on the other side of the planter with no accurate explanation why. (Don’t give me the reversed Greek names BS Gman, you would have dug in the same spot they did.) My point is, we should all expect a “twist” or a “puzzle modifier” even IF we are ever lucky enough to find the correct area. Until that is properly deciphered, I’ll stay skeptically optimistic about future digs. Again, best of luck.

Here is her "gaze north", 9 o'clock direction from school's clock tower.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: You should absolutely probe, dig, and whatever else you feel will forward your progress. However, you should also look for an alternative interpretation for Take twice as many east steps as the hour and Or more . Precision The or more is not clear to me as well but the spot seems to be precise enough. From the two solves we know, how precise was the directions on those locations? So why would be looking for an exact location through the verse or image? That is why I think the alignment with the school, tower, and lawn are important. So at most, we are looking at a 5 x 5 area. Hell yeah, I understand being skeptical and second guessing everything. We didn't get this far without a lot of resistance (mostly by me). But if all the resistance is against the 22 step or more line and an exact spot, which nobody will get sitting at home, then I think we are good.

NYCNative wrote:: This is solid, backed up with confirmation from the image and verse and excerpts from the book. What else do you need out of a solve? NYCNative wrote:: which nobody will get sitting at home... Edited this post after re-reading your initial post and follow up. You get it. Also, I think I was belittling to the parts of the verse I've used to get to the school (before hamilton or dickens are even involved) which I'm actually quite proud of. As far as the dig, we've latched onto an easy guess. Personally, I'm ok with this because I really believe major clues are missing after 40 years for all of these hunts and this may be the only way at this point to find any of them. I agree we should start there, but the neon sign only says "You have a reasonable hypothesis pointing to this area." GoldenMartyr summed up my earlier statement in one word. Precision. There are ways to read the verse that lead to exact spots, and there are ways to read it that don't. We're currently in the latter camp with this theory and we need to acknowledge that if we're going to have success with our boots on the ground endeavor. The sentiments I've been sharing all week. I'm not sure why we're still talking about this unless someone actually comes up with some solid photographic information that leads to a definitive idea. Conjecture is a waste of breath if we're actually going there soon. haha.

NYCNative wrote:: From the two solves we know, how precise was the directions on those locations? Very precise, they just didn't fully solve the puzzles. Well, Andy sort of did. Regardless, that only tells us that it is possible to dig up a casque without fully solving a puzzle. I think this is a cool location, maybe not the correct location but that is just my opinion. The point I was getting at is, if BP intended to give precise instructions to a square foot area, the current interpretation of lines 13 and 14 need more work and you can continue to work on the two lines till you get there. No need to wait.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: [my opinion. The point I was getting at is, if BP intended to give precise instructions to a square foot area... I have a hard time believing that any of these were described to that level of precision.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: Very precise, they just didn't fully solve the puzzles. Well, Andy sort of did. Regardless, that only tells us that it is possible to dig up a casque without fully solving a puzzle. I think this is a cool location, maybe not the correct location but that is just my opinion. The point I was getting at is, if BP intended to give precise instructions to a square foot area, the current interpretation of lines 13 and 14 need more work and you can continue to work on the two lines till you get there. No need to wait. I am confused about the Chicago solve then. How did the verse/image give a precise square foot area after it was fully solved? if I remember it correctly, wasn't it about the 10 x 13 clue which was the tree lines with the gate in the image?

“a LITTLE digging is your task.”

GoldenMartyr wrote:: the current interpretation of lines 13 and 14 need more work I thought for a while that Preiss was trying to line up with something in particular, hence the "or more." He had the clue of twice the hour (twenty-two) but it didn't quite get far enough to reach his specific spot. What spot and why that specific one? No clue. Either that or it was an odd number of steps, like twenty-three, and the "or more" accounts for that one more past the "twice the hour" amount of steps. Not sure what one additional step would get you, but maybe this ties into the previous point about a specific location he was trying to reach. In any case, there's obviously/definitely something "more" to it than twenty-two steps.

idyl wrote:: In any case, there's obviously/definitely something "more" to it than twenty-two steps. Unpopular opinion: I still don't think 22 will end up tying into this at all. I have no idea what does, but from what we've seen so far, I think it's more likely that an hour is displayed on site than that he's referencing the image.

phrabbott wrote:: Unpopular opinion: I still don't think 22 will end up tying into this at all. I have no idea what does, but from what we've seen so far, I think it's more likely that an hour is displayed on site than that he's referencing the image. Like a broken clock at the site, or a sign that says, "Park closes at 9:00"

gManTexas wrote:: I have a hard time believing that any of these were described to that level of precision. Why? It's already been proven.

phrabbott wrote:: Unpopular opinion: I still don't think 22 will end up tying into this at all. I have no idea what does, but from what we've seen so far, I think it's more likely that an hour is displayed on site than that he's referencing the image. After looking at those keywords from the Japanese hints, I found it interesting that the ‘v’ and ‘22 steps’ were not included. I got the impression at least for this puzzle (maybe others) that the keywords were the ‘armchair portion’ of the hunt whereby you use books, maps etc to solve them at home. It’s what left out of the keywords that I thought was interesting. It’s almost is if Preiss was saying a ‘v’ is a ‘v’ ‘22 steps is 22 steps’ -there is no riddle or double entendre here. Note all the included keywords seem to have a double entendre associated with them (ie slender path = narrows). I also think Preiss included the “or more” to account for variance in human steps.

davinci4 wrote:: I also think Preiss included the “or more” to account for variance in human steps. Let's hope that nobody has short strides.

I agree with Davinci on this. I think we are used to reading into things more then they should. I also agree with Gman. I already asked the question about Chicago. How was this precise within a square foot after the full solve?

NYCNative wrote:: ... about Chicago. How was this precise within a square foot after the full solve?... Them's fightin' words yon city slicker.... You will not get a consensus answer to that question. Because there is question as to the exact dig spot. (Depending on whether you choose to believe the most recent version of the dig spot - or whether previously other nearby spots that had been identified give you reason to doubt any/all of those). So it's up to personal choice and opinion. Also remember that as amazing as they did solving the puzzle, when it comes to the exact dig spot - Byron helped them. By sending them a picture of the freshly filled in hole. So it doesn't have an end to end fully organic interpretation of the clues.

Kang wrote:: Them's fightin' words yon city slicker.... You will not get a consensus answer to that question. Because there is question as to the exact dig spot. (Depending on whether you choose to believe the most recent version of the dig spot - or whether previously other nearby spots that had been identified give you reason to doubt any/all of those). So it's up to personal choice and opinion. Also remember that as amazing as they did solving the puzzle, when it comes to the exact dig spot - Byron helped them. By sending them a picture of the freshly filled in hole. So it doesn't have an end to end fully organic interpretation of the clues. That is what I thought but it seems others are trying to push another reality on this. Thanks again Kangus!

NYCNative wrote:: That is what I thought but it seems others are trying to push another reality on this. I don’t believe anyone is pushing a different agenda or reality. I believe that there HAS to be a better way to pinpoint where the casques were buried. Ever notice how all of the bulletproof solves always refine down to a general area? Ever notice how all of those solves yield the same results? The point that I personally tried to make is even if you are in the correct 5 foot X 5 foot area, that is an enormous hole to dig. One that requires 1 of a few things to turn out successfully. Luck, ruthless digging, help from Preiss or a more accurate solution. From what I’ve read here so far, you guys are only left with 2 of those options. Just because the found casques never refined down to an extremely accurate solution, that certainly doesn’t mean that there wasn’t one. Setting the Chicago argument aside. Was it Preiss’ intention for whomever found the casque in Cleveland to dig out the entire planter after giving such clear directions to count stones in a specific direction? Or, was that person supposed to figure out the true location of the casque? “a LITTLE digging is your task.”

Bingo. I would argue that the Cleveland cask was a pretty confined space. When they started at the correct brick marker, it took 20 minutes to dig the hole if I am not mistaken. No GPR or pictures from Preiss. I think it’s hard to say if you are dealing with a 5x5 area (or larger or smaller) because these puzzles work differently in that regard. For example, if you take one of the prevailing theories in Houston, the ‘treasure map’ was actually the painting which was a perspective drawing of the cask location. In Milwaukee, presumably it’s right next to a birch tree. I suspect the details in these paintings become more obvious when you are standing in the correct location. Details regarding the presumed cask spot are where most ‘solutions’ start to fall apart, including my own. Two months ago, I was still trying to make JPJ Park work. I think this where people have to start analyzing their solutions. Put yourself in JPJ Park for example, and ask yourself, do things add up? There is a gazebo, cannon, cannon balls, obelisk monument, ship mast. Wouldn’t have JJP drawn influence from one or more of these potential markers? Why does 22 steps from every v put you in another insignificant patch of grass? It’s sometimes hard to analyze our own solutions, but very helpful if you are going to make strides going forward. To quote TISOTGH, “sometimes the way to go forward is to go back.”

NYCNative wrote:: How was this precise within a square foot after the full solve? I thought I answered this a page back. They didn’t fully solve the puzzle. Are you arguing the side that says the intent was only to get close and mail in a solution?

Best of luck this weekend. I’ve been excited about prospective digs in the past and I certainly understand where you guys are at. Have fun.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: I thought I answered this a page back. They didn’t fully solve the puzzle. Are you arguing the side that says the intent was only to get close and mail in a solution? Yes, and on that same page I asked, with the full solution what was the clue that put them in the precise spot of the casque? I got no answer from you. As for your second question,..huh? Who is arguing this?

davinci4 wrote:: Bingo. I would argue that the Cleveland cask was a pretty confined space. When they started at the correct brick marker, it took 20 minutes to dig the hole if I am not mistaken. No GPR or pictures from Preiss. I think it’s hard to say if you are dealing with a 5x5 area (or larger or smaller) because these puzzles work differently in that regard. For example, if you take one of the prevailing theories in Houston, the ‘treasure map’ was actually the painting which was a perspective drawing of the cask location. In Milwaukee, presumably it’s right next to a birch tree. I suspect the details in these paintings become more obvious when you are standing in the correct location. Details regarding the presumed cask spot are where most ‘solutions’ start to fall apart, including my own. Two months ago, I was still trying to make JPJ Park work. I think this where people have to start analyzing their solutions. Put yourself in JPJ Park for example, and ask yourself, do things add up? There is a gazebo, cannon, cannon balls, obelisk monument, ship mast. Wouldn’t have JJP drawn influence from one or more of these potential markers? Why does 22 steps from every v put you in another insignificant patch of grass? It’s sometimes hard to analyze our own solutions, but very helpful if you are going to make strides going forward. To quote TISOTGH, “sometimes the way to go forward is to go back.” Sounds logical to me.

NYCNative wrote:: Sounds logical to me. Sure, but don’t forget that was AFTER six hours of completely digging out the left side of the planter. You know, the side that the verse was very clear and concise about the casques location... Enjoy the dig. I look forward to hearing all about the experience.

BINGO wrote:: Sure, but don’t forget that was AFTER six hours of completely digging out the left side of the planter. You know, the side that the verse was very clear and concise about the casques location... Enjoy the dig. I look forward to hearing all about the experience. Oh I have no doubt it would still be difficult to find the casque and dig it out without digging a massive hole, which we really can not do in this type of location. The natives there are very protective of their community. Digging a hole is work and doing it while trying to keep a low profile and minimal damage to the park is hard work in 3 vols. Thanks for the encouragement BINGO. Much appreciated!

How did the search go???

Ok, so I actually feel better about this area than I originally did. The good? It was quite easily 22 steps and change to the fence. Like 23 steps. Unless you're NYCNative and take little kid baby steps. So we went ahead and dug a few holes in the most likely "line ups." Had a couple cops loop around on us, so we would fill our hole and sketch off for a bit making it slow going. The ground along the fence is super diggable. Very few rocks or roots. Anyone in NYC have a GPR? I think it might actually do something here. Interestingly (and expectedly), the key, most obvious line up had a pretty big divot. Not a 6" divot, but definitely an "I've been dug before divot." Grass had regrown, so at least a couple months had passed. It also had a pad lock hanging above it. Not sure if the pad lock was related, but still weird. However, we didn't find anything... yet.

LOL "little kid baby steps"! I was actually scared that the steps would take us out the park but like poopy doo doo head said, It brought us right up to the fence which is awesome because that lawn is a lot bigger then it looks in aerial photos. Had the 22 taken us to the middle of the field only, we would have serious problem locating a logical dig spot. There are a few possible dig spots that line up with what we think are the clues to this puzzle. If we had a permit or better window to dig without being ultra paranoid and cautious, we would have either dug it out or been able to rule out the spot totally. We will be back shortly with a better set up, better tools, and a better cover for the people traffic and police.

I applaud you guys for digging. Not sure how many people on here would actually dig. Keep at it!

@davinci: Here are your Oliver St. "v" photos. I don't believe in it, and regret putting the idea in your head, but I will defend to my death your right to look into it https://www.dropbox.com/sh/k1qh8z2y4bak ... W_0ia?dl=0 Behind us is a really long staircase of oversized stairs. More than 22, surrounded by fence and 'forest' (as a little girl that was quite excited to go down the steps described it.)

Are those steps coming down from old glory pedestrian bridge? The curved ones on each side, how many steps (if steps)? 18 + 1? https://tinyurl.com/y4ef7ol4

Hi All. Just getting caught up here. Thanks for taking and posting the photos of Oliver St. Rules out that location in my opinion. Very similar to JPJ: although some nice confirmers here and there, Oliver street doesn’t really have anything on the ground going for it. The Fort Hamilton HS “v” looks very promising indeed. The photo you posted at the middle of the v, lines up almost perfectly with the clock and 22 steps right to the fence. Looking back, this solve was created organically with no preconceived locations that were “retrofitted” with a solution. It was a step by step process, including/excluding locations based on the clues in the verse. Put it this way either you have identified the correct location or this one of the biggest coincidences in the history of solutions in the Secret. The fact that you are standing right in the middle of the v, lined up with the clock tower and take twenty two steps to the fence makes it hard to argue, especially when you can check off all the boxes in the verse that got you there. NYC, phrabbot. A few questions: was SOL and bike path visible from the location? Whats the deal with lock, did someone leave it there as marker or did it actually lock something? More subjective, but was your general feel of the location? Preiss traveled all over the country to hide these, was it “Secret worthy” in your opinion?

Choice wrote:: Are those steps coming down from old glory pedestrian bridge? The curved ones on each side, how many steps (if steps)? 18 + 1? https://tinyurl.com/y4ef7ol4 The steps from the pedestrian bridge actually go up to Old Glory. I've been there many times, but I'm not sure how many steps there are. Love this South Brooklyn thread. This is where I think the casque is buried as well. Great work here.

Cool leighanny, so it's a high vantage point to look north or south (down) from. up north down south back east out west

Choice wrote:: Cool leighanny, so it's a high vantage point to look north or south (down) from. Yes. When you cross the ped bridge and reach the bottom of Old Glory, you'd be able to see the SOL (it would be very small and hard to make out, but the view would have been unobstructed) to the north from there, except for a tree which I'm fairly certain wasn't there in the early 80s. If you take the steps up to the top of Old Glory, even more so. My best guess for this NY casque is at the top of Old Glory. I think I posted my theory somewhere here a while back.

davinci4 wrote:: Hi All. Just getting caught up here. Thanks for taking and posting the photos of Oliver St. Rules out that location in my opinion. Very similar to JPJ: although some nice confirmers here and there, Oliver street doesn’t really have anything on the ground going for it. The Fort Hamilton HS “v” looks very promising indeed. The photo you posted at the middle of the v, lines up almost perfectly with the clock and 22 steps right to the fence. Looking back, this solve was created organically with no preconceived locations that were “retrofitted” with a solution. It was a step by step process, including/excluding locations based on the clues in the verse. Put it this way either you have identified the correct location or this one of the biggest coincidences in the history of solutions in the Secret. The fact that you are standing right in the middle of the v, lined up with the clock tower and take twenty two steps to the fence makes it hard to argue, especially when you can check off all the boxes in the verse that got you there. NYC, phrabbot. A few questions: was SOL and bike path visible from the location? Whats the deal with lock, did someone leave it there as marker or did it actually lock something? More subjective, but was your general feel of the location? Preiss traveled all over the country to hide these, was it “Secret worthy” in your opinion? Only speaking for myself here. I feel that we got one extra possible clue from going to the site that we have to work on to see if it is helpful or even valid. As far as the view, there are plenty of shrubs and small trees that will block the view to the SOL from the spot of the dig. Who knows what was there or not there in 1981. Other then that, we have a great view of the clock, flagpole, rectangle, and a few items not talked about yet. The line up is strong enough to want to go back again and fully explore the area. Based on the research and brainstorming we have done here and on the discord and other conversation, I really think this is our most promising spot to date. Not only did we complete the verse as best as we can but we also have been able to use the Japanese clues to confirm it all. I do not imagine the lock has anything to do with the solve. It is probably just a random artifact. It is hard to deny the location with everything right there to see. The dig spot has elements that reminds me of Chicago's final location. The 22 steps seems to have even worked out well. Just more things to make me more interested in the site.

leighanny wrote:: Yes. When you cross the ped bridge and reach the bottom of Old Glory, you'd be able to see the SOL (it would be very small and hard to make out, but the view would have been unobstructed) to the north from there, except for a tree which I'm fairly certain wasn't there in the early 80s. If you take the steps up to the top of Old Glory, even more so. My best guess for this NY casque is at the top of Old Glory. I think I posted my theory somewhere here a while back. Hi Leighanny, I wouldn't rule out Old Glory at all but I for one have a hard time figuring out why it would be there and what would actually lead us there? I know you are very familiar with the area and what is in it. I just do not see how any of them match up to the verse or really to the image (although so much is left unanswered in the image). Just like anything else in this game, if you want to make it fit, you will find connections.

NYCNative wrote:: Hi Leighanny, I wouldn't rule out Old Glory at all but I for one have a hard time figuring out why it would be there and what would actually lead us there? I know you are very familiar with the area and what is in it. I just do not see how any of them match up to the verse or really to the image (although so much is left unanswered in the image). Just like anything else in this game, if you want to make it fit, you will find connections. If I'm correct isn't Old Glory a couple hundred feet away from FHHS and basically in a chain of parks right there? Assuming the casque is in the vicinity, why couldn't it play into the puzzle?

davinci wrote:: The photo you posted at the middle of the v, lines up almost perfectly with the clock and 22 steps right to the fence. gManTexas wrote:: If I'm correct isn't Old Glory a couple hundred feet away from FHHS and basically in a chain of parks right there? Assuming the casque is in the vicinity, why couldn't it play into the puzzle? leighanny wrote:: My best guess for this NY casque is at the top of Old Glory. davinci wrote:: A few questions: was SOL and bike path visible from the location? More subjective, but was your general feel of the location? Preiss traveled all over the country to hide these, was it “Secret worthy” in your opinion? Well, I lined that up. Tried to think like a puzzle person trying to come up with recreatable results. Was it close to the middle of the v? Sure. This is my problem with the 22 steps from the middle of one branch of the v. What's the middle of the v? If you're off by 6" then you're not going to find it. Should we be bringing our laser distance measures? And if you take 22 steps or more, then you don't have a definitive end. (here, the fence worked, but elsewhere?) That's two unknowns. This is why I'm a vehement supporter of "taking 22 East steps or more. And then from the middle of one branch of the v you look down/north." That's the only interpretation that gives you a definitive start and end. (start=a path that goes eastward as opposed to another direction. End is the middle of one branch of a v. "end" is either part of the east path or something the path leads you to ) No, this isn't overthinking it. The other interpretation just doesn't put you anywhere of value any way you shake it. At least a 5 minute walk. You'd need a good reason to head that way. That being said, this particular full "theory path" takes you through Old Glory on the way to the high school. Statue of liberty isn't super small in my opinion. It's pretty clear from all points on shore park (where there aren't trees). Ellis island is barely visible, however. I would definitively rule out the top of old glory as every planter zone is bricked in right up to the trees and 100% undiggable. Surprised you didn't count those steps though... Hard to say. Tons more shrubs and trees than there used to be. What's secret worthy? A random field next to a railroad behind a statue of Lincoln? If that's the benchmark, then sure. I have no expectations based on the two actual finds. They were both pretty lame areas as far as 'views' or whatnot.

Hi All. Just wanted to jump in here. Goes back to my Oliver Street/JPJ realization. What ground confirmers point to Old Glory? Are there any markers at that site that could be influences in the painting? As far as the verse, I am not seeing a v or wouldn’t understand why he would use the HS as a riddle in the verse if it were buried at Old Glory. To reverse it, if Preiss had buried it at Old Glory wouldn’t he have used the inscription on the monument in the verse or parts of the monument in the painting? These are great conversations to have, the Secret’s version of the “Socratic Method” if you will. Similar ones have helped us get to this point (please see previous discussions about Oliver Street). NYC. Forgot to mention the rectangle. It’s actually the lighter gray negative space that surrounds that makes the comparison to the grounds in front of the HS more compelling. Phrabbot, I see what you are saying about 22 steps from the v, but could you clarify the “two unknowns”?

davinci4 wrote:: but could you clarify the “two unknowns”? Did I not? 1. Where do you start? Middle of one branch of the v. What's that mean? Where do I measure from and to? You have to be extremely exact to find a 6" casque. And then you have to walk DUE EAST and not veer at all. That's madness. Paved paths don't have a line saying "start here." 2. Where do you end? 22 steps or more? Again, due east or you will surely be more than 6" off over 22 steps. Ok... We can pretend that something will stop us, but that can't be relied on. That's why the other interpretation takes care of all of these variables. You take an eastward path and you stay on said path for 22 steps or more. (11 real big stairs? 22 stairs? who knows, but either way there's a definitive answer.) Then from the middle of one branch of a v you look down and north and dig a hole. Maybe the 22 steps or more IS one and the same with the middle of the v. You're significantly closer than the other interpretation that has so much room for error. (obviously, this interpretation can't be used in front of FHHS) All of this is why I decided the middle of the v was where the flagpole lined up with the clock. Otherwise we're just shooting in the dark and might as well get a bobcat and rip up the entire lawn.

Colors in the dot window panels are A connection to old glory. Note that only red, white and blue and combination of them are present.

Choice wrote:: Colors in the dot window panels are A connection to old glory. Note that only red, white and blue and combination of them are present. Choice. The red bubbles are 85th (or 83th) street!!! I have an original version of the book and the “83 st.” actually shows up quite well. Best way to look at is to picture the red/orange bubbles as negative space. The smallest bubbles are negative space as well. So the different colors and size ratios help conceal the hidden message. The remaining light pink/light violet color bubbles that make up the “83 st.” show up well. I actually think what you originally thought was a “5” is a large “3”

leighanny wrote:: My best guess for this NY casque is at the top of Old Glory. Statue of liberty isn't super small in my opinion. It's pretty clear from all points on shore park (where there aren't trees). Ellis island is barely visible, however. I would definitively rule out the top of old glory as every planter zone is bricked in right up to the trees and 100% undiggable. Surprised you didn't count those steps though... Yeah, I dislike where I've come up with because of the bricks. Even so, it's where my theory brought me. And I didn't count the steps because it isn't part of my theory. I'll try to find the format I posted my theory in a while back and repost it tomorrow. My NY solution is not simple unfortunately. And I get that people have a problem with that. Still, it's where I think it is. And I think I have a great image match to Old Glory.

davinci4 wrote:: Choice. The red bubbles are 85th (or 83th) street!!! I have an original version of the book and the “83 st.” actually shows up quite well. Best way to look at is to picture the red/orange bubbles as negative space. The smallest bubbles are negative space as well. So the different colors and size ratios help conceal the hidden message. The remaining light pink/light violet color bubbles that make up the “83 st.” show up well. I actually think what you originally thought was a “5” is a large “3” Yes, that may only be a way-point though. In case the grassy hole doesn't pan out here's a fall-back plan (old Glory hole?) you may want to consider: The purple panel (far right) shows a giant nine with the prominent circle/dot at the starting point and V to the south. This lines up with the 9 o'clock on the clock, direction of her gaze and the two islands (Ellis and B.) in the blue dome (bay). viewtopic.php?f=32&t=8015&start=363

leighanny wrote:: Statue of liberty isn't super small in my opinion. It's pretty clear from all points on shore park (where there aren't trees). Ellis island is barely visible, however. I would definitively rule out the top of old glory as every planter zone is bricked in right up to the trees and 100% undiggable. Surprised you didn't count those steps though... Yeah, I dislike where I've come up with because of the bricks. Even so, it's where my theory brought me. And I didn't count the steps because it isn't part of my theory. I'll try to find the format I posted my theory in a while back and repost it tomorrow. My NY solution is not simple unfortunately. And I get that people have a problem with that. Still, it's where I think it is. And I think I have a great image match to Old Glory. I respect that you are sticking to your guns on your theory. Obviously, it can not be on top of old glory, as a possible dig spot that is. The problem with image confirmations, in my experience with this puzzle, is that it is easy to get lost in your own bias without even knowing you are doing so. That is why so many people are hard on others when their image confirmation is not spot on as we have seen in the solved puzzles, not that I think that is a good reason to dismiss a potential clue. I have seen a lot of image confirmations that make sense for several theories on Shore road, very good ones in fact. Yet, the only things that seems alluring about old glory is that it is one, if not the only spot with landmarks. Are we talking about crescent shape areas like old glory because it matches the arch in image 12? That is very possible, but that is not a unique feature in this area. Luckily, this thread stayed light an image matches and focused on the verse. At which point a lot of things in the image started to have a stronger match and possibly meaning. That got us to this spot that is not a unique solve at all but how we got to it sure is. I would still love to see your theory and your image conformations. We have a discord group for private discussion like that if you would like as well.

The only way I see old glory working is that there are these commemorative plaques honoring 3 different navy people who died in either a shipwreck or were POWs. That would fit the mythological figure that the female is based off of (Russian version of a siren who would lure sailors to their death)

Would someone mind posting a complete solve for Old Glory starting with the ‘gray giant’ and going line by line?

NYCNative wrote:: That got us to this spot that is not a unique solve at all but how we got to it sure is. Think we should slow down here. There's nothing that makes this theory better than many of the other prevailing theories in the area. The only reason we're at Ft. Hamilton HS is that you wouldn't believe Charles Dickens could be him of hard word, so I provided an age old, solid interpretation that uses him. And then there happened to be one shore park's dozen 'v' paths in front of it. What makes this process different? Do I think the theory holds merit? Sure. We dug some holes yesterday, didn't we? Not trying to belittle the theory, but we have answered approximately the same amount of image/verse clues as most other theories that are presented (if not less). I still personally can't tie my "Grey Giant->Whirring" to my "Indies->v" for this one. It seems the only reason we feel strongly about this particular location is that we've answered the elusive "him of Hard word" which is the clue people have given this mythical strength to. Answering that clue does not make for a stronger theory as we still don't know what that clue does for the puzzle when solved correctly. Adding the 22 steps from the v was exciting, but I have equally strong 22 steps in all three of my shore park theories. In sum, I wouldn't poke holes in others' theories without hearing them first.

kittykatz wrote:: The only way I see old glory working is that there are these commemorative plaques honoring 3 different navy people who died in either a shipwreck or were POWs. That would fit the mythological figure that the female is based off of (Russian version of a siren who would lure sailors to their death) Just curious, but why do you think the final location will relate to anything thematic? Alas, Chicago buried in a field beside a railroad bed certainly didn't. By saying "the only reason it could work," you're implying that this thematic link is a requirement. I believe that a reason we're having trouble finding these could be that we may be trying to impose too much 'logic' to them. You know? Could a location not just work because it is arrived at via the verse clues, has 22 steps or more and then has a promising v with image matches to boot? edit: ugh, but then I find myself just flip-flopping to the "we know nothing john snow." Can't hurt to look for a thematic element, because maybe a couple will have it! Who knows!

[ ="davinci4"]Would someone mind posting a complete solve for Old Glory starting with the ‘gray giant’ and going line by line?[/quote] I’m not at my computer today but will try to get to this as soon as I can. Can someone remind me how to post a picture here? Again, I’m sure some say my theory is far fetched, so it probably won’t be what you’re looking for. But it’s something to think about.

phrabbott wrote:: Think we should slow down here. There's nothing that makes this theory better than many of the other prevailing theories in the area. The only reason we're at Ft. Hamilton HS is that you wouldn't believe Charles Dickens could be him of hard word, so I provided an age old, solid interpretation that uses him. And then there happened to be one shore park's dozen 'v' paths in front of it. What makes this process different? Do I think the theory holds merit? Sure. We dug some holes yesterday, didn't we? Not trying to belittle the theory, but we have answered approximately the same amount of image/verse clues as most other theories that are presented (if not less). I still personally can't tie my "Grey Giant->Whirring" to my "Indies->v" for this one. It seems the only reason we feel strongly about this particular location is that we've answered the elusive "him of Hard word" which is the clue people have given this mythical strength to. Answering that clue does not make for a stronger theory as we still don't know what that clue does for the puzzle when solved correctly. Adding the 22 steps from the v was exciting, but I have equally strong 22 steps in all three of my shore park theories. In sum, I wouldn't poke holes in others' theories without hearing them first. I agree and disagree. Since time has past since this theory was first introduced, we have have the fortune of the Japanese clues to confirm at least Rhapsodic man and him of hard word. These 2 lines have never had a good match to them. You know I feel that both are strong clues and we probably have the right names. Him of hard word might be the final piece of the verse puzzle needed to tie in the school to the solve. That is the missing piece and confirmation that nobody could of had back 7 years ago. So we for sure have more of a possible solve then the old ones. If we are talking about Old glory and poking holes into that theory, I am not. I am just saying the obvious, that it can not be on top of Old Glory as suggested but I am still very interested in knowing how they got there.

leighanny wrote:: [ ="davinci4"]Would someone mind posting a complete solve for Old Glory starting with the ‘gray giant’ and going line by line? I’m not at my computer today but will try to get to this as soon as I can. Can someone remind me how to post a picture here? Again, I’m sure some say my theory is far fetched, so it probably won’t be what you’re looking for. But it’s something to think about.[/quote] We aren't looking for anything but ideas to play with, so thank you for agreeing to post something about your solve.

leighanny wrote:: Can someone remind me how to post a picture here? If you upload to imgur, apparently it's easier to scale. Definitely use the preview function while posting pics so you can tweak. If you already have it uploaded to gDrive or Dropbox, I would personally just link people there and not embed a photo here. A bit quicker to see if it's inline, but I've found that if you make them an appropriate size for thread, they're too small and I have to open them elsewhere anyway. Six of one half dozen of another, I suppose.

Here's what I think is going on with the window panels: I think the top row panels describe the bottom row panels. So from left to right: Rectangle: 83/85 St. Blue Domes Map: Description devided into two 1/2 panels. Bird wing on top half panel spells out "Ellis" (mirrored) Bottom half, on bird's body you can read "5 NY" perhaps the boroughs; 5 extends to bird's feet, 3 'fingers' point to Ellis, Liberty isle and the land mass south. There may be other hidden writings there. Womans head: All blue bubbles; perhaps represents SOL surrounded by water. Clock: Large 9 in the panel shows the direction of travel and the number to double

Da fack!? She’s a cyborg?

No, Superman's illegitimate sister.

phrabbott wrote:: Da fack!? She’s a cyborg? LMAO!

Hi, I’m trying to do this on my phone so I apologize if the link doesn’t work. My NY (Brooklyn) theory (I apologize for calling it my solution, I meant theory, when I wrote it and I can’t change it at this time) is in The Greater the Difficultly piece. My strong visual for Old Glory is the entire window frame being equal to the city blocks next to Old Glory. My theory follows along simply until the ending. I think we’re to take 32 steps rather than 22. My NY theory follows with my Old Testament theory. Old Glory = the Glory of God. I understand if you find this far fetched, no worries. I don’t like that I think it’s near a tree either. www.thesecretofthesecret.blog Also, a link to my updated OT theory maybe on the top of this Wordpress site, otherwise it can be found on the main FB site.

leighanny wrote:: Hi, I’m trying to do this on my phone so I apologize if the link doesn’t work. My NY (Brooklyn) theory (I apologize for calling it my solution, I meant theory, when I wrote it and I can’t change it at this time) is in The Greater the Difficultly piece. My strong visual for Old Glory is the entire window frame being equal to the city blocks next to Old Glory. My theory follows along simply until the ending. I think we’re to take 32 steps rather than 22. My NY theory follows with my Old Testament theory. Old Glory = the Glory of God. I understand if you find this far fetched, no worries. I don’t like that I think it’s near a tree either. hxxp://www.thesecretofthesecret.blog Also, a link to my updated OT theory maybe on the top of this Wordpress site, otherwise it can be found on the main FB site. Thanks for sharing Leighanny!

Does anyone know the number of steps on each side of the Old Glory, the curved stairways?

leighanny wrote:: hxxp://www.thesecretofthesecret.blog That was a good read. The mention of the ruler was something that I hadn't seen before, and works in concert with my own thoughts about this particular puzzle. Looking forward to my next dig attempt with that in mind.

24" ruler may be relevant to a 24 hour clock. 11 O'clock then would be 23, which is 11X2+1.

Question for the board. When looking at the “v” in front of Fort Hamilton HS, what would you call “the middle”? Would you call the “v” the grass v in the middle of the concrete pathway or concrete pathway itself that extends the entire length? “The middle” would be different depending on what you are calling the v.

Delta

idyl wrote:: That was a good read. The mention of the ruler was something that I hadn't seen before, and works in concert with my own thoughts about this particular puzzle. Looking forward to my next dig attempt with that in mind. I pm’d Pierard a while ago (not sure if he was off limits like the Palencars?) only to ask him what kind of ruler was used for that image. He saw the message but didn’t respond. I let it go at that. It seems to be drawn to scale as it’s measurement seems correct. A 24 inch ruler with inches on both sides isn’t a typical ruler. Maybe it was an artistic ruler, rather large though. Anyway, it looks to me like more than 22 steps are needed and that you need to loop around the fence.

davinci4 wrote:: Question for the board. When looking at the “v” in front of Fort Hamilton HS, what would you call “the middle”? Would you call the “v” the grass v in the middle of the concrete pathway or concrete pathway itself that extends the entire length? “The middle” would be different depending on what you are calling the v. Since you are asking for opinions, while it is a V probably not the V.

I wonder why Leighanny didn't mention the Menorah shape of the area.

maltedfalcon wrote:: Since you are asking for opinions, while it is a V probably not the V. Do you have one in mind you would be willing to share?

davinci4 wrote:: Do you have one in mind you would be willing to share? not at this time, but I never bought into the Fort Hamilton thing.

Hi Malted. We are always looking for new insights. I can understand if you have another location in mind you don’t want to share. Just curious about your thoughts regarding Fort Hamilton HS location and why clues don’t seem to point there in your opinion. It’s always helpful to hear a fresh perspective on these threads.

Choice wrote:: I wonder why Leighanny didn't mention the Menorah shape of the area. It does have a nice shape but I think my theory is already long enough as is :-)

[/quote]not at this time, but I never bought into the Fort Hamilton thing.[/quote] So when are you going hunting, Matt?

Choice wrote:: The whole concept of crowd sharing is to brainstorm and build on eachother's ideas not to stroke your own ego by rejecting other viewpoints. Right now some people have setup their own private stroke-fest thread and waiting for someone on the main forum to squirt out a "kernel of corn" for them to chew on. Meanwhile they do not share anything from walking the grounds and what they observed or learned. It's all one-sided. This is not how a crowd-sharing forum is supposed to work. phrabbott wrote:: Ok, so I actually feel better about this area than I originally did. The good? It was quite easily 22 steps and change to the fence. Like 23 steps. Unless you're NYCNative and take little kid baby steps. So we went ahead and dug a few holes in the most likely "line ups." Had a couple cops loop around on us, so we would fill our hole and sketch off for a bit making it slow going. The ground along the fence is super diggable. Very few rocks or roots. Anyone in NYC have a GPR? I think it might actually do something here. Interestingly (and expectedly), the key, most obvious line up had a pretty big divot. Not a 6" divot, but definitely an "I've been dug before divot." Grass had regrown, so at least a couple months had passed. It also had a pad lock hanging above it. Not sure if the pad lock was related, but still weird. However, we didn't find anything... yet. Just popped in to pound out a quick stroke, when I realized that there are some folks in another thread who apparently don't bother to read before flinging baseless accusations around...To my shock and amazement, no less. So I thought I'd quote the following - which was posted several weeks ago. What more sharing is needed? You need the badge number of the cop that started bird dogging and cut the outing short? I'll get right on that. Now where was I??? Ah, yes....

Glad you can still amaze yourself as you completely missed the point Kang. What's the point of having secret meetings in your mother's basement if you don't have things that you're hiding and not sharing? They continue poking blindly till they hit the target 40 yrs later, maybe. Spray n pray. It just discourages some from posting their findings. Why do you want to help a bunch of strokers that disrespect you and hostile to you regularly?

Am I being attacked right now?

I missed nothing. You say that people went boots on the ground and did not report back their findings. That a damn lie. I know this because I was there. And I saw phrabbott's post which I quoted - which he posted that same day. Then you say in in one breath that they must be hiding something because of their secret meetings. While in the next breath you're bitching about the public stroke-fest thread they started in which they discuss these very secret things. For all to read. Get it together man. Pick one side of the fight or the other. As for your 'findings' - if you review the thread, I believe you may find that when your findings were on topic to SW Brooklyn, you were treated very nicely. Complimented even. And that when your 'findings' were about Columbus Circle, Roosevelt Island and Times Square you were not. Especially when you posted the same finding multiple times - over and over. At which point, I personally suggested that those findings are all well and good. But should probably be posted in the usual Image 12 thread. Because to do otherwise is just trolling. And things seemed to get better after that. With all respect, if you can manage to compartmentalize your helping into those two different buckets I'm confident that your findings will be treated with more respect and you then will in turn not become so discouraged. Best of luck to you. Peace.

You proved my point exactly. I post "private thread" and you read public . Good luck with you.

SMH

gManTexas wrote:: SMH Yeah, me too. My reading comprehension is just fine. Good thing I'm posting this in a public thread where he won't see it... Because it's so so private. 30 pages worth of secret meetings no one but the strokers can see. MMWOOHAHAHA... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnMQUGd-XYk

Clueless wonder, no one is talking about this thread. Are you that far gone? gman, loosen up your G-string, tied too tight around your "brains"! STFU

A bit off topic. Maybe we can move this to the “piss & moan” thread? I can see you’re talking about the “old timers” maybe, but no one here says what they mean, so who knows? But why do you care? If their secret threads were so valuable, they’d have made progress. I understand you don’t want to feed the watchers that don’t contribute, but I’m not worried. It’s not the info, it’s how you use it and people are clearly using it poorly. Haha So ya, come to BK, we’ll get some beers, we can put some faces to the names, and we can dig a hole.

Choice wrote:: Clueless wonder, no one is talking about this thread. Are you that far gone? gman, loosen up your G-string, tied too tight around your "brains"! STFU Why do you feel the need to lash out at people? You are clearly wrong here. Plenty of people have shared tons of info about locations and digs, myself included. Maybe you should find some other hobby.

Another invaluable comment from the peanut gallery.

Unknown: If their secret threads were so valuable, they’d have made progress. Maybe they have.

phrabbott wrote:: A bit off topic. Maybe we can move this to the “piss & moan” thread? So ya, come to BK, we’ll get some beers, we can put some faces to the names, and we can dig a hole. That is the most gangster sh*t that has been said in a long time! Regarding "the Secret, secret dig": It will commence as stated in our last meeting that was located at the crest of a longbill's back, over the under stated crevice of the bald eagle's testicle, AKA Deez patriotic nuts. I should remind everyone involved in said secret, secret society the penalty of speaking to any reporters, schizophrenics, law enforcement official, priests, or public forum members is spiritual death at the hands of a secret shaman from San Diego (AKA A Whale's vagina). This months raffle winner is Wendy! Wendy is a single mother of 6 and lives in a rural community in Dakota. Wendy is known for her killer smile, her addictive yummie brownies, and the assault charge on her now missing husband, Charles Parnum. If anyone has seen Charles, you are urged to call the mother ship immediately! He has brown hair, dimples, and high cholesterol. He also responds to the name " Pootie Kat".

phrabbott wrote:: So ya, come to BK, we’ll get some beers, we can put some faces to the names, and we can dig a hole. I get you buddy but I don't swing that way. NYC is available; you can dig the old glory together!